I understand that law can be complicated, but you seem to endorse the following position:
The following is not illegal: A victim has sex with a perpetrator, without consent to have sex from the victim. The perpetrator only threatens to use force and does not actually use force.
That legal position is inconsistent with most other crimes (robbery is taking your property from you without consent—no violence element is included). I think criminalizing sex in the absence of consent is quite justified. I acknowledge that consent can have multiple meanings and that ambiguity must be resolved, but non-consent seems a complete justification for criminalization.
Additionally, the above theory seems likely to put the victim at risk of further harm—my understanding is that most police departments recommend not resisting (both rape and robbery) because of the risk that the criminal will do further injury.
In practice what this means is that a woman can declare any sexual encounter to be “rape” after the fact.
False accusations are a problem for the criminal justice system in general. I can falsely accuse you of stealing money from me, or hitting me, or harassing me. If I tailor the explanation carefully, the police would have no reason to expect corroborating evidence. You deny the charge, and it comes down to relative credibility. I’m not saying this is ideal, but it is the best we can do in the absence of some kind of truth-oracle. Why is this a bigger problem for rape than other crimes?
False accusations are a problem for the criminal justice system in general.
The problem is that the accusation isn’t “false”, in the sense that if the woman decides she didn’t want the sex after the fact it is rape by the de facto definition .
Why is this a bigger problem for rape than other crimes?
Well for starters, the DoE recently sent out a dear college letter demanding that colleges use the weakest possible standards of evidence for rape cases on pain of loosing federal funding.
There’s no way to read your assertion about de facto rape that isn’t essentially false. Accusations of murder (or child abuse) are huge blemishes, even if you are acquitted. And legally, you can’t revoke consent after the fact—the problem is proof, not definition.
Regarding the letters you mentioned, I’d like to point out if you thought some fact (i.e. someone is trying to attack you) was “more likely than not,” you’d act—not wait until the evidence was “clear and convincing” or “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Also, there are lower evidence standards in the law than “more likely than not.” For example, a police officer can arrest you at a much lower standard.
SO IF A MAN GETS DRUNK AND SLEEPS WITH A WOMAN HE WOULDN’T HAVE SLEPT WITH SOBER, it’s humorous grist for jokes about “beer goggles” and “coyote ugly.” But if a woman does the same thing, woe unto anyone who suggests it wasn’t “date rape.”
I think this nicely illustrates the problem with the definition of rape that feminists like yourself are pushing.
Yes, many feminist thinkers are epistemically unhealthy. That doesn’t prove all or even a majority of feminists are anti-epistemic. Notice how the original advice columnist (on Slate.com—hardly an anti-feminist site) rejected the idea that the woman’s experience was obviously rape. More importantly, she emphatically rejected the idea that attempting to withdraw consent after the sex is over is something that others should respect in any way.
I think you could have made this point without linking to Instapundit. If you don’t want this thread to get totally mindkilled, perhaps it’s better to leave out links to people who elicit highly polarized reactions from different political tribes.
I understand that law can be complicated, but you seem to endorse the following position:
That legal position is inconsistent with most other crimes (robbery is taking your property from you without consent—no violence element is included). I think criminalizing sex in the absence of consent is quite justified. I acknowledge that consent can have multiple meanings and that ambiguity must be resolved, but non-consent seems a complete justification for criminalization.
Additionally, the above theory seems likely to put the victim at risk of further harm—my understanding is that most police departments recommend not resisting (both rape and robbery) because of the risk that the criminal will do further injury.
False accusations are a problem for the criminal justice system in general. I can falsely accuse you of stealing money from me, or hitting me, or harassing me. If I tailor the explanation carefully, the police would have no reason to expect corroborating evidence. You deny the charge, and it comes down to relative credibility. I’m not saying this is ideal, but it is the best we can do in the absence of some kind of truth-oracle. Why is this a bigger problem for rape than other crimes?
The problem is that the accusation isn’t “false”, in the sense that if the woman decides she didn’t want the sex after the fact it is rape by the de facto definition .
Well for starters, the DoE recently sent out a dear college letter demanding that colleges use the weakest possible standards of evidence for rape cases on pain of loosing federal funding.
There’s no way to read your assertion about de facto rape that isn’t essentially false. Accusations of murder (or child abuse) are huge blemishes, even if you are acquitted. And legally, you can’t revoke consent after the fact—the problem is proof, not definition.
Regarding the letters you mentioned, I’d like to point out if you thought some fact (i.e. someone is trying to attack you) was “more likely than not,” you’d act—not wait until the evidence was “clear and convincing” or “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Also, there are lower evidence standards in the law than “more likely than not.” For example, a police officer can arrest you at a much lower standard.
As Instapundit points out here.
I think this nicely illustrates the problem with the definition of rape that feminists like yourself are pushing.
Yes, many feminist thinkers are epistemically unhealthy. That doesn’t prove all or even a majority of feminists are anti-epistemic. Notice how the original advice columnist (on Slate.com—hardly an anti-feminist site) rejected the idea that the woman’s experience was obviously rape. More importantly, she emphatically rejected the idea that attempting to withdraw consent after the sex is over is something that others should respect in any way.
I think you could have made this point without linking to Instapundit. If you don’t want this thread to get totally mindkilled, perhaps it’s better to leave out links to people who elicit highly polarized reactions from different political tribes.
I find it rude to quote people without linking to them.
I meant that quoting him was unnecessary; the idea is almost certainly not original to him anyway, so you could restate it in your own words.