You mention inner motivation, competing children, conflict/violent outbreaks. I don’t think you yet have a proper analysis of this violent behavior.
I don’t think of competition as bad in and of itself. Kids can compete to improve in the direction you want them to improve and you can direct sometimes this process merely by directing your attention toward the preferred behavior.
The violent conflicts are probably not caused by inner motivation. It probably the kids motivating each other’s behavior. The problem is that, like inner motivation, it’s not your behavior that is reinforcing the conflict, so it can be a bit harder to address. The dynamics might be the Patterson Coercive Cycle, only between two siblings rather than a parent and child:
I think the usual approach is to separate the kids. Why do you say “reinforce separating them”? You probably are not reinforcing the conflict by separating them. It probably puts conflicts on extinction if you put them both in time out.
Otherwise, you’d have to make sure the aggression does not get it’s reward. That is possible but seems hard. Or you could come up with alternative behaviors that had the same function as the aggression, but I don’t have any good ideas on how to do that, but you could come up with competitions that are less likely to lead to aggression.
Also, this Kindness Chart, or something like it might help:
The kindness chart starts to show some effects. There is a specific valued reward once the sun is full: All children may cuddle and sleep in the family bed. They don’t go for it very actively yet. But at the very least it make kindness more visible and avilable to reflection. I immediately reward kindness when I notice it.
You mention inner motivation, competing children, conflict/violent outbreaks. I don’t think you yet have a proper analysis of this violent behavior.
Indeed. I do not really know why they escalate when they do. I have the feeling that it results from inner motivation to lead and control by the older against the raising resistence of the younger one the one hand and different (incompatible?) emotion regulation of both—namely the older continuously raises the level while the younger handles it relatively smart and cool until he suddenly has enough. Then boom. Trouble is this is a slow process which can go on for a long time below the radar and sometimes not happen at all, e.g. if they don’t touch problematic areas esp. competive ones.
I don’t think of competition as bad in and of itself.
Neither do I. But their competition is not a friendly one.
But maybe that is an idea I can follow up on. Not trying to shape cooperation (as they do have a lot of that), but reinforcing positive competition. But probably I have to start with simulation to get that started.
It probably the kids motivating each other’s behavior. … so it can be a bit harder to address.
Exactly.
I think the usual approach is to separate the kids.
I had and have to use it often enough. But separating them doesn’t help. Except for the moment. As Kazdin writes: It comes too late. Whatever the cause, both will think they won (or at least didn’t lose) and thus got their reward. So any punishment (time out) has no effect.
Why do you say “reinforce separating them”?
The only effect it does have is that they are sparated and I do not want to reinforce separation beteween them. I recognize that they can and do learn a lot from their interaction. I don’t want to alienate them of each other. And it shouldn’t be necessary. They can play and cooperate for hours—if the agree on a topic. And are in not too bad a mood.
Kindness Chart.
I will try it. I will just have to look out that it doesn’t degrade into just another competition and superficial kindness.
I still don’t think you are reinforcing separation. You are not giving them a tangible or intangible reward when they separate. Also, I don’t see that the mere act of separating them will alienate them from each other.
But I can see that it’s plausible that there might be a better strategy than separating them.
If I separate them they immediately switch to other objectives (reading a book, playing lego...) and gain reward from that. It extinguishes the joint play.
I agree that it doesn’t alienate them. For that I’d have to reward them for avoiding each other.
You mention inner motivation, competing children, conflict/violent outbreaks. I don’t think you yet have a proper analysis of this violent behavior.
I don’t think of competition as bad in and of itself. Kids can compete to improve in the direction you want them to improve and you can direct sometimes this process merely by directing your attention toward the preferred behavior.
The violent conflicts are probably not caused by inner motivation. It probably the kids motivating each other’s behavior. The problem is that, like inner motivation, it’s not your behavior that is reinforcing the conflict, so it can be a bit harder to address. The dynamics might be the Patterson Coercive Cycle, only between two siblings rather than a parent and child:
http://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf
I think the usual approach is to separate the kids. Why do you say “reinforce separating them”? You probably are not reinforcing the conflict by separating them. It probably puts conflicts on extinction if you put them both in time out.
Otherwise, you’d have to make sure the aggression does not get it’s reward. That is possible but seems hard. Or you could come up with alternative behaviors that had the same function as the aggression, but I don’t have any good ideas on how to do that, but you could come up with competitions that are less likely to lead to aggression.
Also, this Kindness Chart, or something like it might help:
http://www.netmums.com/parenting-support/parenting-advice/netmums-parenting-course-about-the-courses/getting-the-best-part-2
Inner motivation is a different issue, I think. Typically you change the behavior to a better one that fulfills the same inner motivation.
The kindness chart starts to show some effects. There is a specific valued reward once the sun is full: All children may cuddle and sleep in the family bed. They don’t go for it very actively yet. But at the very least it make kindness more visible and avilable to reflection. I immediately reward kindness when I notice it.
Indeed. I do not really know why they escalate when they do. I have the feeling that it results from inner motivation to lead and control by the older against the raising resistence of the younger one the one hand and different (incompatible?) emotion regulation of both—namely the older continuously raises the level while the younger handles it relatively smart and cool until he suddenly has enough. Then boom. Trouble is this is a slow process which can go on for a long time below the radar and sometimes not happen at all, e.g. if they don’t touch problematic areas esp. competive ones.
Neither do I. But their competition is not a friendly one.
But maybe that is an idea I can follow up on. Not trying to shape cooperation (as they do have a lot of that), but reinforcing positive competition. But probably I have to start with simulation to get that started.
Exactly.
I had and have to use it often enough. But separating them doesn’t help. Except for the moment. As Kazdin writes: It comes too late. Whatever the cause, both will think they won (or at least didn’t lose) and thus got their reward. So any punishment (time out) has no effect.
The only effect it does have is that they are sparated and I do not want to reinforce separation beteween them. I recognize that they can and do learn a lot from their interaction. I don’t want to alienate them of each other. And it shouldn’t be necessary. They can play and cooperate for hours—if the agree on a topic. And are in not too bad a mood.
I will try it. I will just have to look out that it doesn’t degrade into just another competition and superficial kindness.
I still don’t think you are reinforcing separation. You are not giving them a tangible or intangible reward when they separate. Also, I don’t see that the mere act of separating them will alienate them from each other.
But I can see that it’s plausible that there might be a better strategy than separating them.
If I separate them they immediately switch to other objectives (reading a book, playing lego...) and gain reward from that. It extinguishes the joint play.
I agree that it doesn’t alienate them. For that I’d have to reward them for avoiding each other.