I think I was clear that we should still use the current EA tactics of appealing to the head, but enrich them by appealing to the heart, to emotions. I think it’s important to acknowledge and be ok with using some moderate dark arts to promote rationality and effective altruism. If we can motivate people to engage with the EA movement and put their money toward effective charities by getting them to truly care about effective donations, I think that is a quite justifiable use of moderate dark arts.
First, emotions != dark arts, or EA would be meaningless as an enterprise.
Second, you’re not getting anybody to care about effective donations, you’re getting them to care about the social status they would attain by being a part of your organization. People who care about social status in this way are going to want more, and they’re better at it than you are. You will lose control.
Sure, emotions = dark arts, but there are shades of darkness, I think we can all agree on that. For example, the statement “emotions != dark arts” relies on a certain emotional tonality to the word “dark arts.”
I’m getting people to care about social status to the extent that they care about effective donations. There is nothing about Intentional Insights itself that they should care about, the organization is just a tool to get them to care about effective giving. The key is to tie people’s caring to effective giving :-)
Sure, emotions = dark arts, but there are shades of darkness, I think we can all agree on that.
No. We can’t. Emotions != dark arts. I say that as somebody who killed his emotions and experienced an emotion-free existence for over a decade in the pursuit of pure rationality. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
the statement “emotions != dark arts” relies on a certain emotional tonality to the word “dark arts.”
No, it does not. It is a statement that there are ways of interacting with emotions that are non-manipulative. Emotions are not in opposition to rationality, and indeed are necessary to it. Emotions are the fundamental drive to our purpose; rationality is fundamentally instrumental. Emotions tell us what we should achieve; rationality tells us how. What makes your approach “dark arts” is that you seek to make people achieve something different from the achievement you are appealing to in them.
I’m getting people to care about social status to the extent that they care about effective donations. There is nothing about Intentional Insights itself that they should care about, the organization is just a tool to get them to care about effective giving. The key is to tie people’s caring to effective giving :-)
You lure people in with one goal, and hope to change the goal they pursue. Have a notion of your own human fallibility, and consider what will happen if you fail. They won’t leave. They will take over, and remake your shining institution in their own image.
Because if you do possess the ability to change people’s goals, you should start there. Convince people that Effective Altruism is worth doing for its own sake. If you can manage that, you don’t need the dark arts in the first place. If you need the dark arts, then you can’t do what you’d need to be able to do to make the results favorable, and shouldn’t use them.
I accept that you believe you killed your emotions. However, I think statements like “you have no idea what you are talking about” indicate a presence of emotions, as that’s a pretty extreme statement. So I think it might be best to avoid further continuing this discussion.
OrphanWilde has told his emotion-killing story elsewhere on LW, and isn’t claiming to have no emotions now but to have spent some time in the past without emotions (having deliberately got rid of them) and found the results very unsatisfactory.
Whether that makes any difference to your willingness to continue the conversation is of course up to you.
If you do possess the ability to change people’s goals, you should start there. Convince people that Effective Altruism is worth doing for its own sake. If you can manage that, you don’t need the dark arts in the first place. If you need the dark arts, then you can’t do what you’d need to be able to do to make the results favorable, and shouldn’t use them.
I think I was clear that we should still use the current EA tactics of appealing to the head, but enrich them by appealing to the heart, to emotions. I think it’s important to acknowledge and be ok with using some moderate dark arts to promote rationality and effective altruism. If we can motivate people to engage with the EA movement and put their money toward effective charities by getting them to truly care about effective donations, I think that is a quite justifiable use of moderate dark arts.
First, emotions != dark arts, or EA would be meaningless as an enterprise.
Second, you’re not getting anybody to care about effective donations, you’re getting them to care about the social status they would attain by being a part of your organization. People who care about social status in this way are going to want more, and they’re better at it than you are. You will lose control.
Sure, emotions = dark arts, but there are shades of darkness, I think we can all agree on that. For example, the statement “emotions != dark arts” relies on a certain emotional tonality to the word “dark arts.”
I’m getting people to care about social status to the extent that they care about effective donations. There is nothing about Intentional Insights itself that they should care about, the organization is just a tool to get them to care about effective giving. The key is to tie people’s caring to effective giving :-)
No. We can’t. Emotions != dark arts. I say that as somebody who killed his emotions and experienced an emotion-free existence for over a decade in the pursuit of pure rationality. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
No, it does not. It is a statement that there are ways of interacting with emotions that are non-manipulative. Emotions are not in opposition to rationality, and indeed are necessary to it. Emotions are the fundamental drive to our purpose; rationality is fundamentally instrumental. Emotions tell us what we should achieve; rationality tells us how. What makes your approach “dark arts” is that you seek to make people achieve something different from the achievement you are appealing to in them.
You lure people in with one goal, and hope to change the goal they pursue. Have a notion of your own human fallibility, and consider what will happen if you fail. They won’t leave. They will take over, and remake your shining institution in their own image.
Because if you do possess the ability to change people’s goals, you should start there. Convince people that Effective Altruism is worth doing for its own sake. If you can manage that, you don’t need the dark arts in the first place. If you need the dark arts, then you can’t do what you’d need to be able to do to make the results favorable, and shouldn’t use them.
I accept that you believe you killed your emotions. However, I think statements like “you have no idea what you are talking about” indicate a presence of emotions, as that’s a pretty extreme statement. So I think it might be best to avoid further continuing this discussion.
OrphanWilde has told his emotion-killing story elsewhere on LW, and isn’t claiming to have no emotions now but to have spent some time in the past without emotions (having deliberately got rid of them) and found the results very unsatisfactory.
Whether that makes any difference to your willingness to continue the conversation is of course up to you.
I’ll repeat:
If you do possess the ability to change people’s goals, you should start there. Convince people that Effective Altruism is worth doing for its own sake. If you can manage that, you don’t need the dark arts in the first place. If you need the dark arts, then you can’t do what you’d need to be able to do to make the results favorable, and shouldn’t use them.