No, certainly nothing distracting from the point like the alluring women statement. I slid past it without much of a specific reaction at all, as I imagine most people would. I’m not sure I see the connection here—what am I missing?
There are no systematic, entrenched mechanisms in society for excluding and marginalising people who don’t find Michaelangelo’s David particularly beautiful (okay, you could probably construct something here about the tension between “high” and “low” culture, but I don’t think it would be germane). Hence the fact that you don’t feel excluded or marginalised, and nor do I by this one. There are systematic, entrenched mechanisms (perhaps not quite the right word) for excluding and marginalising women, so a statement that excludes most women is taken not just alone but as part of a cumulative effect that many women feel. I’m not sure how I can put this any more clearly.
Pretty much the same applies to the Venus de Milo as to David, I’m sure. They’re works of art. Individuals may or may not like them, whatever—as you say, we still see the point clearly, and it’s no big deal because there’s no general discrimination going on over such preferences.
The Jessica Alba one probably lies somewhere between the alluring women and the beautiful sculptures, to me. The fact that you’ve used “beautiful” rather than “alluring” makes a big difference; as a straight woman, I can certainly find other women beautiful, although I may not find them alluring, so it doesn’t feel like as great a disjoint. I imagine people would have quite varied reactions to that one.
The fact that you “immediately got the intended meaning” from the David point is somewhat irrelevant, I think. Of course I also immediately got the intended meaning from the alluring women one; the problem certainly isn’t that it’s hard to see. It’s just that all the other reactions surrounding it are a distraction from the point.
Wow, you certainly got a lot from “Women are alluring”! Thanks for clarifying, this is very interesting.
I would be very interested to hear what was your reaction to the phrase “Michaelangelo’s David will still be beautiful”. Was it anything similar?
No, certainly nothing distracting from the point like the alluring women statement. I slid past it without much of a specific reaction at all, as I imagine most people would. I’m not sure I see the connection here—what am I missing?
How about if he had said that ” The Venus De Milo will still be beautiful”? Or “Jesssica Alba will still be beautiful”?
I personally would have put David fairly low on my list of things that I find beautiful, but I immediately got the intended meaning.
Several thoughts on that:
There are no systematic, entrenched mechanisms in society for excluding and marginalising people who don’t find Michaelangelo’s David particularly beautiful (okay, you could probably construct something here about the tension between “high” and “low” culture, but I don’t think it would be germane). Hence the fact that you don’t feel excluded or marginalised, and nor do I by this one. There are systematic, entrenched mechanisms (perhaps not quite the right word) for excluding and marginalising women, so a statement that excludes most women is taken not just alone but as part of a cumulative effect that many women feel. I’m not sure how I can put this any more clearly.
Pretty much the same applies to the Venus de Milo as to David, I’m sure. They’re works of art. Individuals may or may not like them, whatever—as you say, we still see the point clearly, and it’s no big deal because there’s no general discrimination going on over such preferences.
The Jessica Alba one probably lies somewhere between the alluring women and the beautiful sculptures, to me. The fact that you’ve used “beautiful” rather than “alluring” makes a big difference; as a straight woman, I can certainly find other women beautiful, although I may not find them alluring, so it doesn’t feel like as great a disjoint. I imagine people would have quite varied reactions to that one.
The fact that you “immediately got the intended meaning” from the David point is somewhat irrelevant, I think. Of course I also immediately got the intended meaning from the alluring women one; the problem certainly isn’t that it’s hard to see. It’s just that all the other reactions surrounding it are a distraction from the point.
Thanks for the thorough reply. Sorry if I appear to be missing the point here, but I am genuinely trying to understand your point of view.
Re. 4), yes, I worded that badly and it’s obvious that you get it!
You’re welcome. It’s good to have a genuine dialogue.