I’m genuinely puzzled by this sort of hostile reaction to what was really a pretty mild request for gender neutral language/examples. It seems utterly out of proportion to the original comment(s).
Clearly, any example one comes up with is probably capable of somehow excluding someone, and trying to screen off all possible objections seems unduly onerous given (a) it’s damn near impossible; and (b) the benefits of not excluding left-handed hermaphrodite axylotl enthusiasts are, all things considered, rather small.
But that’s not quite what we’re talking about. While women are certainly scarce on LW, in other parts of the world, they comprise roughly half the population. And using gender neutral language/examples is really easy—much easier than jumping through actual hoops, and probably also easier than writing comments telling people how annoyed you are about their nitpicking. The cost-benefit analysis here seems pretty straightforward.
So why does this seem to annoy (some) people so much?
Is the problem that you actually think it’s illegitimate for people to be bothered by stuff like this? Seriously? Wanting to be included is illegitimate? Wow. I guess it’s easy to think that things don’t matter when they don’t systematically affect you personally, but still.
I’m genuinely puzzled by this sort of hostile reaction to what was really a pretty mild request for gender neutral language/examples. It seems utterly out of proportion to the original comment(s).
His reaction wasn’t all that hostile. And a request being mild doesn’t make the request reasonable, or make it unreasonable to be annoyed by it.
And using gender neutral language/examples is really easy—much easier than jumping through actual hoops, and probably also easier than writing comments telling people how annoyed you are about their nitpicking. The cost-benefit analysis here seems pretty straightforward.
Not really? This is a baffling take. How does writing one comment about being annoyed by something compare to potentially years of committing to gender-neutral language, not just by using singular “they” (for example), but by replacing entire sentence clauses like “Women will still be alluring” with “The touch of another person’s skin will still be wonderfully sensuous” (what??), even when you’re obviously writing said sentence to reflect your own sensibilities more than the audience’s and the sentence is easily generalizable anyway?
Not to mention that it’s the principle of the thing. If you genuinely don’t see any good reason why you should do a Thing at all, and perhaps even see some reasons why you shouldn’t, it makes little to no difference that the Thing is supposedly “really easy” to do. That doesn’t by itself constitute a good reason to do the Thing. (I realize part of conchis’s argument against this in the first place is the burden it imposes, but I don’t perceive that as their only argument. But even if that was their only argument, it still holds as long as “doing the Thing” is not strictly easier than not doing it. As opposed to only being easier than jumping through hoops.)
Is the problem that you actually think it’s illegitimate for people to be bothered by stuff like this?
“Stuff like this” is a very broad category. I’m sure it wasn’t deliberate, but you’re essentially sneaking in anything vaguely related, including things that are reasonable to get upset about, to make conchis’s position look worse.
For my part, I don’t think it’s illegitimate to be bothered by all “stuff like this”; but I do think it’s illegitimate to be bothered by this specific sentence that Emily et al. complained about.
Wanting to be included is illegitimate? Wow.
You’re conflating the actual contested issue, “wanting this specific sentence, and perhaps similar sentences in similar contexts, to be gender neutral”, with the broader and much less contested issue “wanting to be included”. They are not equivalent. I am reminded of some webcomic’s (forget which) sly attempt at discrediting people who are against political correctness, by replacing “being PC” with “being nice to people”, even though “being nice” is not what political correctness often boils down to in practice, and is rarely what opponents are talking about or why they take issue.
I am a woman too, and I want to be included too. And yet, the sentence “Women will still be alluring” doesn’t bother me at all. Because I am not excluded at all by that sentence. The fact that some women seem to perceive being excluded does not imply that this is what’s actually happening.
If anything, I feel more excluded by the fact that the sentence was ultimately changed as a result of the complaints of a few women, even though I, also a woman, don’t think it should have been changed. Why does my opinion matter less? (I’m not suggesting my perception of being excluded is well-founded, or worthy of demanding remedy; but my point is made either way.)
Not to mention that, just like “being nice”, “being inclusive” is not always an imperative or even a reasonable restriction. It often is, but there are times where it isn’t.
I guess it’s easy to think that things don’t matter when they don’t systematically affect you personally,
I believe conchis’s argument is that the particular sentence under discussion shouldn’t affect anyone personally. I’m inclined to agree.
I’m genuinely puzzled by this sort of hostile reaction to what was really a pretty mild request for gender neutral language/examples. It seems utterly out of proportion to the original comment(s).
Clearly, any example one comes up with is probably capable of somehow excluding someone, and trying to screen off all possible objections seems unduly onerous given (a) it’s damn near impossible; and (b) the benefits of not excluding left-handed hermaphrodite axylotl enthusiasts are, all things considered, rather small.
But that’s not quite what we’re talking about. While women are certainly scarce on LW, in other parts of the world, they comprise roughly half the population. And using gender neutral language/examples is really easy—much easier than jumping through actual hoops, and probably also easier than writing comments telling people how annoyed you are about their nitpicking. The cost-benefit analysis here seems pretty straightforward.
So why does this seem to annoy (some) people so much?
Is the problem that you actually think it’s illegitimate for people to be bothered by stuff like this? Seriously? Wanting to be included is illegitimate? Wow. I guess it’s easy to think that things don’t matter when they don’t systematically affect you personally, but still.
His reaction wasn’t all that hostile. And a request being mild doesn’t make the request reasonable, or make it unreasonable to be annoyed by it.
Not really? This is a baffling take. How does writing one comment about being annoyed by something compare to potentially years of committing to gender-neutral language, not just by using singular “they” (for example), but by replacing entire sentence clauses like “Women will still be alluring” with “The touch of another person’s skin will still be wonderfully sensuous” (what??), even when you’re obviously writing said sentence to reflect your own sensibilities more than the audience’s and the sentence is easily generalizable anyway?
Not to mention that it’s the principle of the thing. If you genuinely don’t see any good reason why you should do a Thing at all, and perhaps even see some reasons why you shouldn’t, it makes little to no difference that the Thing is supposedly “really easy” to do. That doesn’t by itself constitute a good reason to do the Thing. (I realize part of conchis’s argument against this in the first place is the burden it imposes, but I don’t perceive that as their only argument. But even if that was their only argument, it still holds as long as “doing the Thing” is not strictly easier than not doing it. As opposed to only being easier than jumping through hoops.)
“Stuff like this” is a very broad category. I’m sure it wasn’t deliberate, but you’re essentially sneaking in anything vaguely related, including things that are reasonable to get upset about, to make conchis’s position look worse.
For my part, I don’t think it’s illegitimate to be bothered by all “stuff like this”; but I do think it’s illegitimate to be bothered by this specific sentence that Emily et al. complained about.
You’re conflating the actual contested issue, “wanting this specific sentence, and perhaps similar sentences in similar contexts, to be gender neutral”, with the broader and much less contested issue “wanting to be included”. They are not equivalent. I am reminded of some webcomic’s (forget which) sly attempt at discrediting people who are against political correctness, by replacing “being PC” with “being nice to people”, even though “being nice” is not what political correctness often boils down to in practice, and is rarely what opponents are talking about or why they take issue.
I am a woman too, and I want to be included too. And yet, the sentence “Women will still be alluring” doesn’t bother me at all. Because I am not excluded at all by that sentence. The fact that some women seem to perceive being excluded does not imply that this is what’s actually happening.
If anything, I feel more excluded by the fact that the sentence was ultimately changed as a result of the complaints of a few women, even though I, also a woman, don’t think it should have been changed. Why does my opinion matter less? (I’m not suggesting my perception of being excluded is well-founded, or worthy of demanding remedy; but my point is made either way.)
Not to mention that, just like “being nice”, “being inclusive” is not always an imperative or even a reasonable restriction. It often is, but there are times where it isn’t.
I believe conchis’s argument is that the particular sentence under discussion shouldn’t affect anyone personally. I’m inclined to agree.