Thanks for the conversation and exploration! I have to admit that this doesn’t match my observations and understanding of power and negotiation in the human agents I’ve been able to study, and I can’t see why one would expect non-humans, even (perhaps especially) rational ones, to commit to alliances in this manner.
I can’t tell if you’re describing what you hope will happen, or what you think automatically happens, or what you want readers to strive for, but I’m not convinced. This will likely be my last comment for awhile—feel free to rebut or respond, I’ll read it and consider it, but likely not post.
I will just say that I am not saying those things for social purposes, I am just stating what I think is true. And I am not baseless as there are studies that show how kantianism and superrationality can resolve cooperative issues and be optimal for agents. You seem to purely disregard these elements, as if they don’t exist (it’s how it feels from my perspective)
There are differences in human evolutions that show behavioral changes, we have been pretty cooperative, more than other animals, many studies show that human cooperate even when it is not in their best selfish interest.
However, we (also) have been constructing our civilization on destruction. Nature is based on selection, which is a massacre, so it is ‘pretty’ coherent for us to inherit those traits.
Despite that, we have seen many positive growth in ethics that increasingly fit with kantianism.
Evolution takes time and comes from deep-dark places, to me a core challenge is to transition towards super-cooperation while being a system made of irrational agents, during polycrises.
There is also a gap between what people want (basically everybody agrees that there are urgent issues to handle as a society, but almost all declare that “others won’t change”; I know this because I’ve been conversing with people from all age/background for half my life on subjects related to crises). What people happen to do under pressure due to the context and constraints isn’t what they’d want if things were different, if they have had certain crucial informations before etc.
When given the tools, such as the moral graph procedure that has been tested recently, things change to the better in a clear and direct way. People initially diverging start to see new aspects on which they converge. There are other studies related to crowd wisdom showing that certain ingredients need to be put together for wisdom to happen (Surowiecki’s recipe: Independence, Diversity and Aggregation). We are in the process of building better systems, our institutions are yet catastrophic on many levels.
In the eyes of many, I am still very pessimistic, so the apparent wishful thinking is quite relative (I think it’s an important point)
I also think that an irrational artificial intelligence might still have high causal impact, and that it isn’t easy to be rational even when we ‘want to’ at some level, or that we see what should be the rational road empirically, yet don’t follow it. Irreducibility is inherent to reality
Anyway despite my very best I might be irrational right now, We all are, but I might be more than you who knows?
Thanks for the conversation and exploration! I have to admit that this doesn’t match my observations and understanding of power and negotiation in the human agents I’ve been able to study, and I can’t see why one would expect non-humans, even (perhaps especially) rational ones, to commit to alliances in this manner.
I can’t tell if you’re describing what you hope will happen, or what you think automatically happens, or what you want readers to strive for, but I’m not convinced. This will likely be my last comment for awhile—feel free to rebut or respond, I’ll read it and consider it, but likely not post.
Thanks as well,
I will just say that I am not saying those things for social purposes, I am just stating what I think is true. And I am not baseless as there are studies that show how kantianism and superrationality can resolve cooperative issues and be optimal for agents. You seem to purely disregard these elements, as if they don’t exist (it’s how it feels from my perspective)
There are differences in human evolutions that show behavioral changes, we have been pretty cooperative, more than other animals, many studies show that human cooperate even when it is not in their best selfish interest.
However, we (also) have been constructing our civilization on destruction. Nature is based on selection, which is a massacre, so it is ‘pretty’ coherent for us to inherit those traits.
Despite that, we have seen many positive growth in ethics that increasingly fit with kantianism.
Evolution takes time and comes from deep-dark places, to me a core challenge is to transition towards super-cooperation while being a system made of irrational agents, during polycrises.
There is also a gap between what people want (basically everybody agrees that there are urgent issues to handle as a society, but almost all declare that “others won’t change”; I know this because I’ve been conversing with people from all age/background for half my life on subjects related to crises). What people happen to do under pressure due to the context and constraints isn’t what they’d want if things were different, if they have had certain crucial informations before etc.
When given the tools, such as the moral graph procedure that has been tested recently, things change to the better in a clear and direct way. People initially diverging start to see new aspects on which they converge. There are other studies related to crowd wisdom showing that certain ingredients need to be put together for wisdom to happen (Surowiecki’s recipe: Independence, Diversity and Aggregation). We are in the process of building better systems, our institutions are yet catastrophic on many levels.
In the eyes of many, I am still very pessimistic, so the apparent wishful thinking is quite relative (I think it’s an important point)
I also think that an irrational artificial intelligence might still have high causal impact, and that it isn’t easy to be rational even when we ‘want to’ at some level, or that we see what should be the rational road empirically, yet don’t follow it. Irreducibility is inherent to reality
Anyway despite my very best I might be irrational right now,
We all are, but I might be more than you who knows?