The example still works since there are quite a few couples who use condoms because they just don’t want to have kids. They don’t have any worry about STDs from their partner. If you insist on a clear cut case look at men who get vasectomies.
The idea that use of contraception is “silly” from the perspective of gene propagation seem just wrong to me. There are plenty of cases where it would make sense for those who want to spread their genes around to agree to use contraceptives. Contraceptive use makes sense sometimes, and not others.
It could be claimed that the average effect of contraception on genes is negative—but that seems to be a whole different thesis.
Sure. Surely we are not disagreeing here. The original comment was:
For example, contraception is popular even though it’s quite silly from the perspective of gene propogation.
My position is just that contraception has a perfectly reasonably place for gene propogators. The idea that contraception is always opposed to your genetic interests is wrong. Lack of contraception can easily result in things like this—which really doesn’t help. That using contraception is “silly” from a genetic perspective is a popular myth.
I’m not sure if we are. The fact that contraception might have a reasonable place for gene propagators is not the issue. The point is that much, and possibly the vast majority, of contraceptive use is contrary to the goals of gene propagation.
No contraception can easily result in things like this—which really doesn’t help. That using contraception is “silly” from a genetic perspective is a popular myth.
Not really. Remember, evolution doesn’t care about your happiness. Indeed, regarding the example you linked to, from an evolutionary perspective,a one night stand with all the protection is utterly useless. It is very likely in that male’s evolutionary advantage to not use condoms.
And even if you don’t agree with the condom example the other example, of a people engaging in a generally irreversible or difficult to reverse operation which renders them close to sterile is pretty clearly against the interest of gene propagation.
Humans evolved in a context where we didn’t have easy contraception and the best humans could do to prevent contraception was things like coitus interruptus. It shouldn’t surprise you that evolution has not made human instincts catch up with modern technologies.
One might think that from an evolutionary perspective it makes sense to substantially delay or reduce offspring number so as to invest maximum resources in a small number of offspring. But humans in the developed world now reside in a situation with low disease rates and lots of resources, so that strategy is sub-optimal from an evolutionary perspective. Look at how charedi(ultra-orthodox) Jews and the Amish are two of the fastest growing populations in the United States.
The fact that contraception might have a reasonable place for gene propagators is not the issue. The point is that much, and possibly the vast majority, of contraceptive use is contrary to the goals of gene propagation.
I can see what you think the issue is. What I don’t see is where in the context you are getting that impression from.
No contraception can easily result in things like this—which really doesn’t help. That using contraception is “silly” from a genetic perspective is a popular myth.
Not really. Remember, evolution doesn’t care about your happiness. Indeed, regarding the example you linked to, from an evolutionary perspective,a one night stand with all the protection is utterly useless. It is very likely in that male’s evolutionary advantage to not use condoms.
Your example is stacked to favour your conclusion. What you need to try and do in order to understand my position is to think about an example that favours my conclusion.
So: get rid of the one-night stand, and imagine that the girl is desirable—that having safe sex with her looks like the best way to initiate a pair-bonding process leading to the two of you having some babies together—and that the alternative is rejection, and her walking off and telling her friends what a jerk you are when it comes to protecting your girl.
The example still works since there are quite a few couples who use condoms because they just don’t want to have kids. They don’t have any worry about STDs from their partner. If you insist on a clear cut case look at men who get vasectomies.
The idea that use of contraception is “silly” from the perspective of gene propagation seem just wrong to me. There are plenty of cases where it would make sense for those who want to spread their genes around to agree to use contraceptives. Contraceptive use makes sense sometimes, and not others.
It could be claimed that the average effect of contraception on genes is negative—but that seems to be a whole different thesis.
Tim, do you agree that there exist couples who plan to never have children and use contraception to that end?
Sure. Surely we are not disagreeing here. The original comment was:
My position is just that contraception has a perfectly reasonably place for gene propogators. The idea that contraception is always opposed to your genetic interests is wrong. Lack of contraception can easily result in things like this—which really doesn’t help. That using contraception is “silly” from a genetic perspective is a popular myth.
I’m not sure if we are. The fact that contraception might have a reasonable place for gene propagators is not the issue. The point is that much, and possibly the vast majority, of contraceptive use is contrary to the goals of gene propagation.
Not really. Remember, evolution doesn’t care about your happiness. Indeed, regarding the example you linked to, from an evolutionary perspective,a one night stand with all the protection is utterly useless. It is very likely in that male’s evolutionary advantage to not use condoms.
And even if you don’t agree with the condom example the other example, of a people engaging in a generally irreversible or difficult to reverse operation which renders them close to sterile is pretty clearly against the interest of gene propagation.
Humans evolved in a context where we didn’t have easy contraception and the best humans could do to prevent contraception was things like coitus interruptus. It shouldn’t surprise you that evolution has not made human instincts catch up with modern technologies.
One might think that from an evolutionary perspective it makes sense to substantially delay or reduce offspring number so as to invest maximum resources in a small number of offspring. But humans in the developed world now reside in a situation with low disease rates and lots of resources, so that strategy is sub-optimal from an evolutionary perspective. Look at how charedi(ultra-orthodox) Jews and the Amish are two of the fastest growing populations in the United States.
I can see what you think the issue is. What I don’t see is where in the context you are getting that impression from.
Your example is stacked to favour your conclusion. What you need to try and do in order to understand my position is to think about an example that favours my conclusion.
So: get rid of the one-night stand, and imagine that the girl is desirable—that having safe sex with her looks like the best way to initiate a pair-bonding process leading to the two of you having some babies together—and that the alternative is rejection, and her walking off and telling her friends what a jerk you are when it comes to protecting your girl.