How comes they describe that in terms of ‘convincing them that you are something you are not’ rather than ‘becoming something you didn’t use to be’? Do they think people have an XML tag attached that reads ‘beta’ or something, independent of how they behave and interact? To me, the idea of convincingly faking being alpha makes as much sense as that of convincingly faking being fluent in English, and sounds like something a generalization of the anti-zombie principle would dismiss as utterly meaningless.
How comes they describe that in terms of ‘convincing them that you are something you are not’ rather than ‘becoming something you didn’t use to be’?
The given “something” is a package consisting of many parts. Some of them are easy to detect, some of them are difficult to detect. In real life there seems to be a significant correlation between the former and the latter, so people detect the former to predict the whole package.
After understanding this algorithm, other people learn the former parts, with intention to give a false impression that they have the whole package. The whole topic is difficult to discuss, because most package-detectors have a taboo against speaking about the package (especially admitting that they want it), and most package-fakers do not want to admit they actually don’t have the whole package.
Thus we end with very vague discussions about whether it is immoral to do …some unspecifed things… in order to create an impression of …something unspecified… when …something unspecified… is missing; usually rendered as “you should be yourself, because pretending otherwise is creepy”. Which means: “I am scared of you hacking my decision heuristics, so I would like to punish you socially.”
What is it that is difficult to detect in a person and still people care about potential partners having it? Income? (But I don’t get the impression that the typical PUA is poverty-stricken, and I can’t think of reasons for people to care about that in very-short-term relationships, which AFAIK are those most PUAs are after.) Lack of STDs? (But, if anything, I’d expect that to anticorrelate with alpha behaviour.) Penis size? (But why would that correlate with behaviour at all?)
What is it that is difficult to detect in a person and still people care about potential partners having it?
I guess it is how the person will behave in the future, and in exceptional situations. We can predict it based on person’s behavior here and now, unless that behavior is faked to confuse our algorithms.
Humans are not automatically strategic and nature is not antropomorphic, but if I tried to translate the nature’s concerns for “I want an alpha male”, it would be: “I want to be sure my partner will be able to protect me and our children in case of conflict.”
This strategy is calibrated for an ancient environment, so it sometimes fails, but often it works; some traits are also useful now, and even the less useful traits still make impression on other people, so they give a social bonus. (For example higher people earn more on average, even if their height is not necessary for their work.)
Of course there is a difference between what our genes “want” and what we want. I guess a typical human female does not rationally evaluate male’s capacity of protecting her in combat, but it’s more like unconscious evaluation + halo effect. A male unconsciously evaluated as an alpha male seems superior in almost everything; he will seem at the same time stronger, wiser, more witty, nicer, more skilled, spiritually superior, whatever. A conflicting information will be filtered away. (“He beat the shit out of those people, because they looked at him the wrong way, and he felt the need to protect me. He loves me so much! No, he is not agresssive; he may give that impression, but only because you don’t really know him. In fact he is very gentle, he has a good heart and wouldn’t wish no harm to anyone. He is just a bit different, because he is such a strong personality. Don’t judge him, because you don’t know him as much as I do! And he did not really murder that guy in 2004, he was just framed by the corrupt police; he explained me everything, because he trusts me. And by the way the dead guy deserved it.”)
Anyway, preference is a preference, you cannot explain it away. (Analogically, if a male prefers females with big breasts, you can’t change his preference by explaining that bigger breasts are not necessary to feed children.)
Anyway, preference is a preference, you cannot explain it away. (Analogically, if a male prefers females with big breasts, you can’t change his preference by explaining that bigger breasts are not necessary to feed children.)
What I meant to ask was what kind of information about someone is hard to detect in a few hours of face-to-face interaction but would still affect someone else’s willingness to have a (usually very-short-term) sexual relationship with them, regardless of whatever evolutionary reasons caused such a preference to exist. (So, in your example, the equivalent “men like women with big breasts” would be a valid answer, but the equivalent of “men like women who could produce lots of milk for their children” wouldn’t.) And I didn’t mean that as a rhetorical question.
(FWIW, and I think I’ve read this argument before, it would make evolutionary sense for women to have different preferences for one-night stands than for marriage, because if you had to choose between a healthy man and a wealthy one you’d rather your child was raised by the latter but (unbeknownst to him) had half the genes of the former.)
I think humans have general preference for “reals value” as opposed to faking their reward signals (a.k.a. “wireheading”). Of course sometimes we fake the reward signals, because it is pleasant and we are programmed to seek pleasure; but if we did it without restraints, our survival value would go down. So when someone enjoys “fake values” too much, they will get negative social feedback, because by putting themselves in danger they also decrease their value as an ally.
So a part of mechanism that warns women against “fake alpha males” may be a general negative response against “fake values”, not necessarily related to specific real risks of having one-night sex on birth control with a fake alpha versus with a real alpha.
Another part could be this: it is good for a woman to have sex with a man whom other women consider attractive. (If the man is unattractive to other women, perhaps he has some negative trait that you did not notice, so it is better to avoid him anyway, because you don’t want to risk your child to inherit a negative trait.) On the level of feelings—not being a woman I can only guess here—the information, or just a suspicion, that a man is unattractive to other women, probably makes the man less attractive. (It is a perception bias.) Simply said: “women like men liked by other women”; and they honestly like them, not just pretend that they do.
The idea of a “fake alpha male” (a PUA) probably evokes an image of man who was unattractive to women he met yesterday, and who is unattractive even today in moments where he stops playing by the PUA rules and becomes his old self. Therefore he is an unattractive man, who just uses some kind of reality-distortion technique to appear attractive. -- An analogy would be an ugly woman using hypnosis to convince men that she is a supermodel. The near-mode belief in existence of such women would make many men feel very uncomfortable, and they would consider “speed hypnosis” lessons unethical. (For better analogy, let’s assume that this “speed hypnosis” cannot be used to break someone’s will, only to alter their perceptions.)
I mean, what’s the difference between a fake alpha male and someone but didn’t use to be an alpha male but has since become one? Is someone who didn’t grow up speaking English but now does a “fake English speaker”?
only to alter their perceptions
Don’t lots of men drink alcohol in order for women to look more attractive to them? :-)
what’s the difference between a fake alpha male and someone but didn’t use to be an alpha male but has since become one?
Congruency. If someone became an alpha male by PUA training, they will probably have the “visible” traits of alpha male, but lack the “invisible” traits (where “invisible” is a short for “not easy to detect during the first date”), because the training will focus on the “visible” traits.
Unless it is a PUA training that explicitly focuses on teaching the “invisible” traits (because they believe that this is the best way to learn and maintain the “visible” traits in long term).
At this point people usually begin to discuss the definition of the term “PUA”. People who like PUA will insist that such trainings belong under the PUA label, and perhaps they are the ultimate PUA trainings, the results of decades of field research. People who dislike the PUA will insist that the label “PUA” should be used only for those surface trainings that create “fake alpha males”, which is a bad thing, and that any complex personality improvement program is just old-fashioned “manning up”, which is a good thing, and should not be confused with the bad thing. This battle for the correct definition is simply the battle for attaching the bad or good label to the whole concept of PUA.
Good story. Someone who didn’t use to be an alpha male but has become one often has a good story that explains why it happened. A story “first I was pathetic, but then I paid a lot of money to people who taught me to be less pathetic, so I could get laid” is not a good story. A good story involves your favorite dog dying, and you being lost in a jungle after the helicopter crash, feeding for weeks on scorpions and venomous snakes. Or spending a few years in army. If a miracle transformed you to an alpha male, your past is forgiven, because there is a clean line between the old you and the new you. Also if the shock was enough to wake you up, then you probably had a good potential, you just didn’t use it fully; you had to be pushed forward, but you found the way instinctively.
There is a fear that if someone gained a trait too easily, they can also lose it easily. (Imagine the shame of being known as Joe’s former girlfriend, if Joe returns to his previous pathetic behavior, because the PUA lessons did not stick.) And if their gaining the trait was based on education, not genetics, then what is the point of getting their genes? :D
Is someone who didn’t grow up speaking English but now does a “fake English speaker”?
A proper analogy would be someone who memorizes a list of English phrases frequently used in some context, with a perfect accent, and then meets you in that context to make a good impression. Only when you ask something unexpected, it turns out the person does not understand most English words.
Of course there is a continuum between fake English knowledge and real English knowledge, but people are expected to cross the continuum in a predictable manner (gradually getting better in all topics). When people speak about “natural” and “fake”, they often mean “predictable and reliable” and “optimized for cheap first impression”. If someone knows 20% of English words in any context, then 50%, then 80%, then 98%, that is learning; if someone knows 100% in one context while knowing 5% in other contexts, that is cheating—this path might finally take you to the same goal, but the mere fact that someone is using this path suggests that they are too lazy to finish it.
Don’t lots of men drink alcohol in order for women to look more attractive to them? :-)
I am not sure if this describes the real behavior, but supposing that they do, they do it voluntarily.
And if their gaining the trait was based on education, not genetics, then what is the point of getting their genes? :D
At least for short-term relationships, people don’t actually want good genes; they want things which correlated with good genes in the ancestral environment. (Not all men would be outraged by the possibility that a woman has undergone breast enlargement surgery, for example.)
(Why was that downvoted? It didn’t explicitly answer my question, but it also contains lots of interesting points. Upvoted back to zero)
Congruency. If someone became an alpha male by PUA training, they will probably have the “visible” traits of alpha male, but lack the “invisible” traits (where “invisible” is a short for “not easy to detect during the first date”), because the training will focus on the “visible” traits.
My question was what those invisible traits are.
Also if the shock was enough to wake you up, then you probably had a good potential, you just didn’t use it fully; you had to be pushed forward, but you found the way instinctively.
Well, I guess if someone just didn’t have “a good potential” it’d be hardly possible for them to learn PUA stuff anyway, much like it’d be hardly possible for someone with an IQ of 75 to learn computational quantum chromodynamics (or even convincingly faking a knowledge thereof). I’m not terribly familiar with PUAs, but I was under the impression that most of their disciples are healthy, non-poor people who for some reason just didn’t have a chance to learn alpha behaviour before (say, they weren’t as interested in relationships as they are now, or they’ve just broken up from a ten-year-long relationship they had started when they were 14, or something).
staying alpha when the situation becomes more intense. (A fake alpha may behave like a real alpha while in the bar, but lose his coolness when alone with the girl in her room. Or may behave like a real alpha the first night, but lose his coolness if they fall in love and a long-term relationship develops.)
heroic reaction in case of a real threat. (A fake alpha is only trained to overcome and perhaps overcompensate for shyness in social situations where real danger is improbable.)
other kinds of consistency. (A fake alpha may forget some parts of alpha behavior when he is outside of the bar, in a situation his PUA teachers did not provide him a script for. For example he does not fear to say “Hello” to a nice unknown girl, but still fears to ask his boss for a higher salary.)
Rationally, this should not be a problem for a one-night stand, if the probability of a real threat or falling in love is small. However, thinking that someone might have this kind of problem, can reduce his attractivity anyway.
I’d guess that, except as far as physical attractiveness is concerned¹, socialization is much much much more relevant than DNA. A clone of Casanova raised in a poor, devoutly religious family in an Islamic country wouldn’t become terribly good at picking up girls.
How comes they describe that in terms of ‘convincing them that you are something you are not’ rather than ‘becoming something you didn’t use to be’? Do they think people have an XML tag attached that reads ‘beta’ or something, independent of how they behave and interact? To me, the idea of convincingly faking being alpha makes as much sense as that of convincingly faking being fluent in English, and sounds like something a generalization of the anti-zombie principle would dismiss as utterly meaningless.
The given “something” is a package consisting of many parts. Some of them are easy to detect, some of them are difficult to detect. In real life there seems to be a significant correlation between the former and the latter, so people detect the former to predict the whole package.
After understanding this algorithm, other people learn the former parts, with intention to give a false impression that they have the whole package. The whole topic is difficult to discuss, because most package-detectors have a taboo against speaking about the package (especially admitting that they want it), and most package-fakers do not want to admit they actually don’t have the whole package.
Thus we end with very vague discussions about whether it is immoral to do …some unspecifed things… in order to create an impression of …something unspecified… when …something unspecified… is missing; usually rendered as “you should be yourself, because pretending otherwise is creepy”. Which means: “I am scared of you hacking my decision heuristics, so I would like to punish you socially.”
What is it that is difficult to detect in a person and still people care about potential partners having it? Income? (But I don’t get the impression that the typical PUA is poverty-stricken, and I can’t think of reasons for people to care about that in very-short-term relationships, which AFAIK are those most PUAs are after.) Lack of STDs? (But, if anything, I’d expect that to anticorrelate with alpha behaviour.) Penis size? (But why would that correlate with behaviour at all?)
I guess it is how the person will behave in the future, and in exceptional situations. We can predict it based on person’s behavior here and now, unless that behavior is faked to confuse our algorithms.
Humans are not automatically strategic and nature is not antropomorphic, but if I tried to translate the nature’s concerns for “I want an alpha male”, it would be: “I want to be sure my partner will be able to protect me and our children in case of conflict.”
This strategy is calibrated for an ancient environment, so it sometimes fails, but often it works; some traits are also useful now, and even the less useful traits still make impression on other people, so they give a social bonus. (For example higher people earn more on average, even if their height is not necessary for their work.)
Of course there is a difference between what our genes “want” and what we want. I guess a typical human female does not rationally evaluate male’s capacity of protecting her in combat, but it’s more like unconscious evaluation + halo effect. A male unconsciously evaluated as an alpha male seems superior in almost everything; he will seem at the same time stronger, wiser, more witty, nicer, more skilled, spiritually superior, whatever. A conflicting information will be filtered away. (“He beat the shit out of those people, because they looked at him the wrong way, and he felt the need to protect me. He loves me so much! No, he is not agresssive; he may give that impression, but only because you don’t really know him. In fact he is very gentle, he has a good heart and wouldn’t wish no harm to anyone. He is just a bit different, because he is such a strong personality. Don’t judge him, because you don’t know him as much as I do! And he did not really murder that guy in 2004, he was just framed by the corrupt police; he explained me everything, because he trusts me. And by the way the dead guy deserved it.”)
Anyway, preference is a preference, you cannot explain it away. (Analogically, if a male prefers females with big breasts, you can’t change his preference by explaining that bigger breasts are not necessary to feed children.)
What I meant to ask was what kind of information about someone is hard to detect in a few hours of face-to-face interaction but would still affect someone else’s willingness to have a (usually very-short-term) sexual relationship with them, regardless of whatever evolutionary reasons caused such a preference to exist. (So, in your example, the equivalent “men like women with big breasts” would be a valid answer, but the equivalent of “men like women who could produce lots of milk for their children” wouldn’t.) And I didn’t mean that as a rhetorical question.
(FWIW, and I think I’ve read this argument before, it would make evolutionary sense for women to have different preferences for one-night stands than for marriage, because if you had to choose between a healthy man and a wealthy one you’d rather your child was raised by the latter but (unbeknownst to him) had half the genes of the former.)
I think humans have general preference for “reals value” as opposed to faking their reward signals (a.k.a. “wireheading”). Of course sometimes we fake the reward signals, because it is pleasant and we are programmed to seek pleasure; but if we did it without restraints, our survival value would go down. So when someone enjoys “fake values” too much, they will get negative social feedback, because by putting themselves in danger they also decrease their value as an ally.
So a part of mechanism that warns women against “fake alpha males” may be a general negative response against “fake values”, not necessarily related to specific real risks of having one-night sex on birth control with a fake alpha versus with a real alpha.
Another part could be this: it is good for a woman to have sex with a man whom other women consider attractive. (If the man is unattractive to other women, perhaps he has some negative trait that you did not notice, so it is better to avoid him anyway, because you don’t want to risk your child to inherit a negative trait.) On the level of feelings—not being a woman I can only guess here—the information, or just a suspicion, that a man is unattractive to other women, probably makes the man less attractive. (It is a perception bias.) Simply said: “women like men liked by other women”; and they honestly like them, not just pretend that they do.
The idea of a “fake alpha male” (a PUA) probably evokes an image of man who was unattractive to women he met yesterday, and who is unattractive even today in moments where he stops playing by the PUA rules and becomes his old self. Therefore he is an unattractive man, who just uses some kind of reality-distortion technique to appear attractive. -- An analogy would be an ugly woman using hypnosis to convince men that she is a supermodel. The near-mode belief in existence of such women would make many men feel very uncomfortable, and they would consider “speed hypnosis” lessons unethical. (For better analogy, let’s assume that this “speed hypnosis” cannot be used to break someone’s will, only to alter their perceptions.)
I mean, what’s the difference between a fake alpha male and someone but didn’t use to be an alpha male but has since become one? Is someone who didn’t grow up speaking English but now does a “fake English speaker”?
Don’t lots of men drink alcohol in order for women to look more attractive to them? :-)
Congruency. If someone became an alpha male by PUA training, they will probably have the “visible” traits of alpha male, but lack the “invisible” traits (where “invisible” is a short for “not easy to detect during the first date”), because the training will focus on the “visible” traits.
Unless it is a PUA training that explicitly focuses on teaching the “invisible” traits (because they believe that this is the best way to learn and maintain the “visible” traits in long term).
At this point people usually begin to discuss the definition of the term “PUA”. People who like PUA will insist that such trainings belong under the PUA label, and perhaps they are the ultimate PUA trainings, the results of decades of field research. People who dislike the PUA will insist that the label “PUA” should be used only for those surface trainings that create “fake alpha males”, which is a bad thing, and that any complex personality improvement program is just old-fashioned “manning up”, which is a good thing, and should not be confused with the bad thing. This battle for the correct definition is simply the battle for attaching the bad or good label to the whole concept of PUA.
Good story. Someone who didn’t use to be an alpha male but has become one often has a good story that explains why it happened. A story “first I was pathetic, but then I paid a lot of money to people who taught me to be less pathetic, so I could get laid” is not a good story. A good story involves your favorite dog dying, and you being lost in a jungle after the helicopter crash, feeding for weeks on scorpions and venomous snakes. Or spending a few years in army. If a miracle transformed you to an alpha male, your past is forgiven, because there is a clean line between the old you and the new you. Also if the shock was enough to wake you up, then you probably had a good potential, you just didn’t use it fully; you had to be pushed forward, but you found the way instinctively.
There is a fear that if someone gained a trait too easily, they can also lose it easily. (Imagine the shame of being known as Joe’s former girlfriend, if Joe returns to his previous pathetic behavior, because the PUA lessons did not stick.) And if their gaining the trait was based on education, not genetics, then what is the point of getting their genes? :D
A proper analogy would be someone who memorizes a list of English phrases frequently used in some context, with a perfect accent, and then meets you in that context to make a good impression. Only when you ask something unexpected, it turns out the person does not understand most English words.
Of course there is a continuum between fake English knowledge and real English knowledge, but people are expected to cross the continuum in a predictable manner (gradually getting better in all topics). When people speak about “natural” and “fake”, they often mean “predictable and reliable” and “optimized for cheap first impression”. If someone knows 20% of English words in any context, then 50%, then 80%, then 98%, that is learning; if someone knows 100% in one context while knowing 5% in other contexts, that is cheating—this path might finally take you to the same goal, but the mere fact that someone is using this path suggests that they are too lazy to finish it.
I am not sure if this describes the real behavior, but supposing that they do, they do it voluntarily.
At least for short-term relationships, people don’t actually want good genes; they want things which correlated with good genes in the ancestral environment. (Not all men would be outraged by the possibility that a woman has undergone breast enlargement surgery, for example.)
(Why was that downvoted? It didn’t explicitly answer my question, but it also contains lots of interesting points. Upvoted back to zero)
My question was what those invisible traits are.
Well, I guess if someone just didn’t have “a good potential” it’d be hardly possible for them to learn PUA stuff anyway, much like it’d be hardly possible for someone with an IQ of 75 to learn computational quantum chromodynamics (or even convincingly faking a knowledge thereof). I’m not terribly familiar with PUAs, but I was under the impression that most of their disciples are healthy, non-poor people who for some reason just didn’t have a chance to learn alpha behaviour before (say, they weren’t as interested in relationships as they are now, or they’ve just broken up from a ten-year-long relationship they had started when they were 14, or something).
staying alpha when the situation becomes more intense. (A fake alpha may behave like a real alpha while in the bar, but lose his coolness when alone with the girl in her room. Or may behave like a real alpha the first night, but lose his coolness if they fall in love and a long-term relationship develops.)
heroic reaction in case of a real threat. (A fake alpha is only trained to overcome and perhaps overcompensate for shyness in social situations where real danger is improbable.)
other kinds of consistency. (A fake alpha may forget some parts of alpha behavior when he is outside of the bar, in a situation his PUA teachers did not provide him a script for. For example he does not fear to say “Hello” to a nice unknown girl, but still fears to ask his boss for a higher salary.)
Rationally, this should not be a problem for a one-night stand, if the probability of a real threat or falling in love is small. However, thinking that someone might have this kind of problem, can reduce his attractivity anyway.
Thanks.
Yes, in our DNA.
Our DNA can give different degrees of bias towards different competitive strategies. It doesn’t determine status or behavior in a given situation.
I think that was the point.
As a reply to the quoted context the point was James made was false.
I’d guess that, except as far as physical attractiveness is concerned¹, socialization is much much much more relevant than DNA. A clone of Casanova raised in a poor, devoutly religious family in an Islamic country wouldn’t become terribly good at picking up girls.
¹And even there, grooming does a lot.