This is ignoring my (2) - those acts are individually beneficial. I want a nice watch. I steal a nice watch. It’s unclear how a psychiatrist is going to be particularly helpful here, if there’s no punishment. Moreover, what if I don’t want to go to the psychiatrist? Am I allowed to wander around freely before I finish my sessions? What if he can’t help me? Ultimately, the psychiatrist is still a punishment—I’m being compelled to go even if I otherwise might not. The fact that it’s a much nicer punishment than prison doesn’t change the fact that it’s a punishment. You wouldn’t give me free psychiatric sessions that I had no obligation to go to in response to my stealing something (or killing someone).
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit. I just think of it bigger-picture. If someone murders his wife, it is good to punish him irrespective of the fact that he has no chance of reoffense. I think my main objection is that I don’t think there’s a world that is likely to exist in which non-coercive responses to certain actions provide adequate deterrence, so there’s no practical difference between justice being a terminal value and not being a terminal value. But that’s somewhat irrelevant.
However, I might even go so far as to say it is good to punish him even if it has no chance of deterring anyone else. Similarly, if I had $10 to give to a serial killer or a sick orphan, I’d give it to the orphan, even if they would experience an equal amount of happiness from obtaining it (and only partly because “equal amount of happiness” may not be a meaningful concept in human language). I believe this choice is typical of all of humanity. The idea of justice as a terminal value requires more development than I can properly do in a comment response; I’ll develop a top-level post on the issue soon.
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit.
The idea of justice as a terminal value...
I don’t understand. Do you think justice has terminal value, or just instrumental value?
Punishment may very well be the best way to minimize harm. I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. I’m just saying that hurting a criminal has negative terminal value. As far as I can understand, the terminal value of punishment is what this post is about.
This is ignoring my (2) - those acts are individually beneficial. I want a nice watch. I steal a nice watch. It’s unclear how a psychiatrist is going to be particularly helpful here, if there’s no punishment. Moreover, what if I don’t want to go to the psychiatrist? Am I allowed to wander around freely before I finish my sessions? What if he can’t help me? Ultimately, the psychiatrist is still a punishment—I’m being compelled to go even if I otherwise might not. The fact that it’s a much nicer punishment than prison doesn’t change the fact that it’s a punishment. You wouldn’t give me free psychiatric sessions that I had no obligation to go to in response to my stealing something (or killing someone).
I think I’m in agreement with you on the terminal/instrumental bit. I just think of it bigger-picture. If someone murders his wife, it is good to punish him irrespective of the fact that he has no chance of reoffense. I think my main objection is that I don’t think there’s a world that is likely to exist in which non-coercive responses to certain actions provide adequate deterrence, so there’s no practical difference between justice being a terminal value and not being a terminal value. But that’s somewhat irrelevant.
However, I might even go so far as to say it is good to punish him even if it has no chance of deterring anyone else. Similarly, if I had $10 to give to a serial killer or a sick orphan, I’d give it to the orphan, even if they would experience an equal amount of happiness from obtaining it (and only partly because “equal amount of happiness” may not be a meaningful concept in human language). I believe this choice is typical of all of humanity. The idea of justice as a terminal value requires more development than I can properly do in a comment response; I’ll develop a top-level post on the issue soon.
I don’t understand. Do you think justice has terminal value, or just instrumental value?
Punishment may very well be the best way to minimize harm. I’m not saying it necessarily isn’t. I’m just saying that hurting a criminal has negative terminal value. As far as I can understand, the terminal value of punishment is what this post is about.