van Gelder holds that an algorithmic approach is simply insuitable for understanding the centrifugal governor. It just doesn’t work, and there’s no reason to even try. To understand the behavior of centrifugal governor, the appropriate tool to use are differential equations that describe its behavior as a dynamic system where the properties of various parts depend on each other.
A set of differential equations that describe its behavior as a dynamic system where the properties of various parts depend on each other, would still be an algorithm. van Gelder appears not to have heard of universal computation.
(1) They do not incorporate any account of the underlying motivations that give rise to the utility that an object or outcome holds at a given time.
I would say that the selection and representation of values is exactly this account.
(2) They conceive of the utilities themselves as static values, and can offer no good account of how and why they might change over time
False.
and why preferences are often inconsistent and inconstant.
Perceived preferences are often inconsistent and inconstant. So you try to find underlying preferences.
(3) They offer no serious account of the deliberation process, with its attendant vacillations, inconsistencies, and distress; and they have nothing to say about the relationships that have been uncovered between time spent deliberating and the choices eventually made.
Also false. The utility function itself is precisely a model of the deliberation process. It isn’t going to be an equation that fits on a single line. And it is going to have some computational complexity, which will relate the relationships between time spent deliberating and the choice eventually made.
I hope—because this is the most charitable interpretation I can make—that all these people complaining about utility functions are just forgetting that it uses the word “function”. Not “arithmetic function”, or “regular expression”. Any computable function. If an output can’t be modelled with a utility function, it is non-computable. If humans can’t be modelled with utility functions, that is a proof that a computer program can’t be intelligent. I’m not concerned with whether this is a good model. I just want to able to say, theoretically, that the question of what a human should do in response to a situation, is something that can be said to have right answers and wrong answers, given that human’s values/preferences/morals.
All this harping about whether utility functions can model humans is not very relevant to my post. I bring up utility functions only to communicate, to a LW audience, that you are only doing what you want to do when you behave morally. If you have some other meaningful way of stating this—of saying what it means to “do what you want to do”—by all means do so!
(If you want to work with meta-ethics, and ask why some things are right and some things are wrong, you do have to work with utility functions, if you believe anything like the account in the meta-ethics sequence; for the same reason that evolution needs to talk about fitness. If you just want to talk about what humans do—which is what I’m doing here—you don’t have to talk about utility functions unless you want to be able to evaluate whether a particular human is behaving morally or immorally. To make such a judgement, you have to have an algorithm that computes a judgement on an action in a situation. An that algorithm computes a utility function.)
A set of differential equations that describe its behavior as a dynamic system where the properties of various parts depend on each other, would still be an algorithm.
Sure, but that’s not the sense of “algorithm” that was being used here.
If an output can’t be modelled with a utility function, it is non-computable. If humans can’t be modelled with utility functions, that is a proof that a computer program can’t be intelligent. I’m not concerned with whether this is a good model. I just want to able to say, theoretically, that the question of what a human should do in response to a situation, is something that can be said to have right answers and wrong answers, given that human’s values/preferences/morals.
None of this is being questioned. You said that you’re not concerned with whether this is a good model, and that’s fine, but whether or not it is a good model was the whole point of my comment. Neither I nor van Gelder claimed that utility functions couldn’t be used as models in principle.
All this harping about whether utility functions can model humans is not very relevant to my post. I bring up utility functions only to communicate, to a LW audience, that you are only doing what you want to do when you behave morally.
My comments did not question the conclusions of your post (which I agreed with and upvoted). I was only the addressing the particular paragraph which I quoted in my initial comment. (I should probably have mentioned that IAWYC in that one. I’ll edit that in now.)
Sorry. I’m getting very touchy about references utility functions now. When I write a post, I want to feel like I’m discussing a topic. On this post, I feel like I’m trying to compile C++ code and the comments are syntax error messages. I’m pretty much worn out on the subject for now, and probably getting sloppy, even though the post could still use a lot of clarification.
No problem—I could have expressed myself more clearly, as well.
Take it positively: if people only mostly nitpick on your utility function bit, then that implies that they agree with the rest of what you wrote. I didn’t have much disagreement with the actual content of your post, either.
A set of differential equations that describe its behavior as a dynamic system where the properties of various parts depend on each other, would still be an algorithm. van Gelder appears not to have heard of universal computation.
I would say that the selection and representation of values is exactly this account.
False.
Perceived preferences are often inconsistent and inconstant. So you try to find underlying preferences.
Also false. The utility function itself is precisely a model of the deliberation process. It isn’t going to be an equation that fits on a single line. And it is going to have some computational complexity, which will relate the relationships between time spent deliberating and the choice eventually made.
I hope—because this is the most charitable interpretation I can make—that all these people complaining about utility functions are just forgetting that it uses the word “function”. Not “arithmetic function”, or “regular expression”. Any computable function. If an output can’t be modelled with a utility function, it is non-computable. If humans can’t be modelled with utility functions, that is a proof that a computer program can’t be intelligent. I’m not concerned with whether this is a good model. I just want to able to say, theoretically, that the question of what a human should do in response to a situation, is something that can be said to have right answers and wrong answers, given that human’s values/preferences/morals.
All this harping about whether utility functions can model humans is not very relevant to my post. I bring up utility functions only to communicate, to a LW audience, that you are only doing what you want to do when you behave morally. If you have some other meaningful way of stating this—of saying what it means to “do what you want to do”—by all means do so!
(If you want to work with meta-ethics, and ask why some things are right and some things are wrong, you do have to work with utility functions, if you believe anything like the account in the meta-ethics sequence; for the same reason that evolution needs to talk about fitness. If you just want to talk about what humans do—which is what I’m doing here—you don’t have to talk about utility functions unless you want to be able to evaluate whether a particular human is behaving morally or immorally. To make such a judgement, you have to have an algorithm that computes a judgement on an action in a situation. An that algorithm computes a utility function.)
Sure, but that’s not the sense of “algorithm” that was being used here.
None of this is being questioned. You said that you’re not concerned with whether this is a good model, and that’s fine, but whether or not it is a good model was the whole point of my comment. Neither I nor van Gelder claimed that utility functions couldn’t be used as models in principle.
My comments did not question the conclusions of your post (which I agreed with and upvoted). I was only the addressing the particular paragraph which I quoted in my initial comment. (I should probably have mentioned that IAWYC in that one. I’ll edit that in now.)
Sorry. I’m getting very touchy about references utility functions now. When I write a post, I want to feel like I’m discussing a topic. On this post, I feel like I’m trying to compile C++ code and the comments are syntax error messages. I’m pretty much worn out on the subject for now, and probably getting sloppy, even though the post could still use a lot of clarification.
No problem—I could have expressed myself more clearly, as well.
Take it positively: if people only mostly nitpick on your utility function bit, then that implies that they agree with the rest of what you wrote. I didn’t have much disagreement with the actual content of your post, either.