Interestingly, those goals I described us in terms of—wanting truth, wanting to avoid deluding ourselves—are not really what separates “us” from “them”.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Everyone says they want the truth, but often reveal though their actions that it’s pretty low on the priority list. Perhaps we should say that we want truth more than most people. Or that we don’t believe we can get away with deceiving ourselves without paying a terrible price.
I disagree with this. Of course, not everyone places seeking truth as their highest priority. (A certain kind of mindless hedonist , perhaps.) But when you say, “everyone says they want the truth, [...], but it’s pretty low on the priority list” you are confusing wanting “truth” with wanting the beliefs you consider to be true. In other words, your version of the truth is low on their priority list. You don’t have to be relativistic about what truth is, but I think it is a false belief to think that people don’t believe their beliefs are true.
I would also like to add that confusion about beliefs seems to be a common human state, at least transiently. It is too negative to call the state when a person has conflicting, inconsistent beliefs “delusional”. Sometimes life teaches a person that this state is impossible to get out of—I hope this is a false belief—and they become complacent about having some subset of beliefs that they know are false. This complacence (really, a form of despair) is the closest example I can think of for a person not wanting truth.
you are confusing wanting “truth” with wanting the beliefs you consider to be true.
What a presumptuous, useless thing to say. Why don’t you explain how you’ve deduced my confusion from that one sentence.
Apparently you think I’ve got a particular truth in mind and I’m accusing those who disagree with me of deprioritizing truth. Even if I was, why does that indicate confusion on my part? If I wanted to accuse them of being wrong because they were stupid, or of being wrong because they lacked the evidence, I would have said so. I’m accusing them of being wrong because it’s more fun and convenient than being right. Seeing as how you don’t know any specifics of what the argument is about, on what basis have you determined my confusion?
But actually I didn’t have a particular controversy in mind. I’m claiming people deprioritize truth about smaller questions than “is there a god”, or “does socialism work”. I’m guessing they deprioritize truth even on things that are much closer to home, like “am i competent?”, or “do people like me”, or “is my company on the path the success?”
Come to think of it, that sounds quite testable. I wonder if anyone’s done an experiment....
OK. I thought I was arguing with another version of “if you’re not rational, then you don’t value truth”. That was presumptuous. And you’re right, there is this other category of being rather indifferent or careless with respect to the truth, especially if the truth may be unpleasant or require work. I observe I have a knee jerk reaction to defend the “them” group whenever there is any kind of anti-”other-people” argument… and it is not my intention to be an indiscriminate bleeding-heart defender, so I need to consider this.
I’m not sure if that’s true. Everyone says they want the truth, but often reveal though their actions that it’s pretty low on the priority list. Perhaps we should say that we want truth more than most people. Or that we don’t believe we can get away with deceiving ourselves without paying a terrible price.
I disagree with this. Of course, not everyone places seeking truth as their highest priority. (A certain kind of mindless hedonist , perhaps.) But when you say, “everyone says they want the truth, [...], but it’s pretty low on the priority list” you are confusing wanting “truth” with wanting the beliefs you consider to be true. In other words, your version of the truth is low on their priority list. You don’t have to be relativistic about what truth is, but I think it is a false belief to think that people don’t believe their beliefs are true.
I would also like to add that confusion about beliefs seems to be a common human state, at least transiently. It is too negative to call the state when a person has conflicting, inconsistent beliefs “delusional”. Sometimes life teaches a person that this state is impossible to get out of—I hope this is a false belief—and they become complacent about having some subset of beliefs that they know are false. This complacence (really, a form of despair) is the closest example I can think of for a person not wanting truth.
What a presumptuous, useless thing to say. Why don’t you explain how you’ve deduced my confusion from that one sentence.
Apparently you think I’ve got a particular truth in mind and I’m accusing those who disagree with me of deprioritizing truth. Even if I was, why does that indicate confusion on my part? If I wanted to accuse them of being wrong because they were stupid, or of being wrong because they lacked the evidence, I would have said so. I’m accusing them of being wrong because it’s more fun and convenient than being right. Seeing as how you don’t know any specifics of what the argument is about, on what basis have you determined my confusion?
But actually I didn’t have a particular controversy in mind. I’m claiming people deprioritize truth about smaller questions than “is there a god”, or “does socialism work”. I’m guessing they deprioritize truth even on things that are much closer to home, like “am i competent?”, or “do people like me”, or “is my company on the path the success?”
Come to think of it, that sounds quite testable. I wonder if anyone’s done an experiment....
OK. I thought I was arguing with another version of “if you’re not rational, then you don’t value truth”. That was presumptuous. And you’re right, there is this other category of being rather indifferent or careless with respect to the truth, especially if the truth may be unpleasant or require work. I observe I have a knee jerk reaction to defend the “them” group whenever there is any kind of anti-”other-people” argument… and it is not my intention to be an indiscriminate bleeding-heart defender, so I need to consider this.