What we do think we know is that politics is a great way to bring out the irrationality in people.
Yes, and the irrationality comes in before the discussion even has a chance. In these kinds of discussions, almost without fail, people take their circumstances as a given, and then ask what set of policies would be optimal. The (mistaken) assumption being that their circumstances are immutable while policy is entirely malleable and controllable. The opposite is true. That is, we have the most control over our own situation, and the least control over public policy (effectively none).
Inevitably, people in different circumstances will have different preferences over policy outcomes, and so the discussion degenerates into people bickering about which set of policies is “best”, i.e. everyone tells everyone else that their preferences are wrong (and then they try to rationalize their preferences in order to “prove” that they are the correct ones, and then arguments become soldiers and so on and so forth).
Virtually every single “debate” in politics is dissolved once one questions the assumption above. If we have almost no control over public policy, then is it even worth considering our preferences over them? To illustrate, a question like “should the government raise taxes?” is about as relevant as “should Jupiter be painted blue?” if I can do nothing to effect either case.
I propose that we turn politics on its side. Instead of asking “Given my circumstances, what policies are best?” we should ask “Given the current policies, what circumstances are best?”. That is we should be engaging in is sociopolitical Munchkinism. We ought to be studying the sociopolitical system and taking advantage of its patterns and loopholes. The best political ideas are those that most improve the circumstances of a given person. There are many objective measures one could use to evaluate them. That would be the only way to have a rational discussion of politics.
we should ask “Given the current policies, what circumstances are best?” … The best political ideas are those that most improve the circumstances of a given person.
That’s a good point, the only problem is that has nothing to do with politics as commonly understood. You are just changing subjects, not turning the politics on its head.
we should ask “Given the current policies, what circumstances are best?”.
I guess it’s to be born in a powerful family of oligarchs, preferably ones that are not abusive to their children, as an intelligent non-asperger person who can learn how to play the game.
We ought to be studying the sociopolitical system and taking advantage of its patterns and loopholes.
Uhm… any useful reincarnation tips?
Actually, I like your idea. I am just not sure how big change could we make “merely” by studying the system and applying the advantages. More than zero, certainly, but we could still be kinda disappointed with the result, because we expected more. (Also, it may require us to sacrifice some other values.)
But taking advantage of the system seems to me like an experimental verification that your model is correct.
This reminds me: many years ago, one of my friends expressed a strong political opinion that in capitalism you don’t need any skills or work to get rich; you just have to start with some money and then it automatically makes more money. Thus people born in rich families get more rich, and others don’t have a chance. I said that to make your money make more money, you still need some plan, and you need to execute it, which not literally eveyone can do. My friend objected that you just pay other people to do the work and the thinking for you, and that’s all.
At that moment I started playing with numbers, and showed my friend that he could get enough money to start a company and pay two or three people for one year… which according to his simplistic model should be enough to start the accelerating money spiral (he just needs to make one of them a manager, who would design plans and make the other person or two realize them; and then my friend can pay them fixed salary and take all the profit). I told him that if he really believes that, I will get him the money, in return for a part of the profit. My friend quickly updated his theory, and said that this is not enough, and you need 100 × more money to get to the level where money starts making other money automatically. (Of course, no justification for the number 100 was provided.)
Actually, I like your idea. I am just not sure how big change could we make “merely” by studying the system and applying the advantages. More than zero, certainly, but we could still be kinda disappointed with the result, because we expected more. (Also, it may require us to sacrifice some other values.)
Well more than zero is still more than zero, right? I think if you expect to be disappointed by the results of an endeavor, then you may as well revise your expectations downward from the start, so I don’t see that as much of an obstacle. (I also don’t believe in the existence of values, so no problem there either).
This reminds me: many years ago, one of my friends expressed a strong political opinion that in capitalism you don’t need any skills or work to get rich; you just have to start with some money and then it automatically makes more money. Thus people born in rich families get more rich, and others don’t have a chance. I said that to make your money make more money, you still need some plan, and you need to execute it, which not literally eveyone can do. My friend objected that you just pay other people to do the work and the thinking for you, and that’s all.
I actually agree with your friend that you don’t need any special skills to get rich(er) (neither in capitalism nor in any other socioeconomic system), you just have to do the bare minimum required not to sink your business, (and yes you can pay other people to do the work and the thinking for you), but I would disagree with the notion that this will lead to automatic success.
Since there are many more poor people than rich people, it follows that not only is it difficult for poor people to become rich but also that it is easy for rich people to become poor. Some rich people get richer, but most get poorer. (Nonetheless, I do believe that the richer you are the harder it is to fall to a given level of wealth) Hence, it is my belief that the most successful businessmen are outliers and their success is mostly due to variables that are out of their control.
Ultimately, I think your friend’s reluctance toward your plan was justified (though maybe not for the same reasons he had).
Yes, and the irrationality comes in before the discussion even has a chance. In these kinds of discussions, almost without fail, people take their circumstances as a given, and then ask what set of policies would be optimal. The (mistaken) assumption being that their circumstances are immutable while policy is entirely malleable and controllable. The opposite is true. That is, we have the most control over our own situation, and the least control over public policy (effectively none).
Inevitably, people in different circumstances will have different preferences over policy outcomes, and so the discussion degenerates into people bickering about which set of policies is “best”, i.e. everyone tells everyone else that their preferences are wrong (and then they try to rationalize their preferences in order to “prove” that they are the correct ones, and then arguments become soldiers and so on and so forth).
Virtually every single “debate” in politics is dissolved once one questions the assumption above. If we have almost no control over public policy, then is it even worth considering our preferences over them? To illustrate, a question like “should the government raise taxes?” is about as relevant as “should Jupiter be painted blue?” if I can do nothing to effect either case.
I propose that we turn politics on its side. Instead of asking “Given my circumstances, what policies are best?” we should ask “Given the current policies, what circumstances are best?”. That is we should be engaging in is sociopolitical Munchkinism. We ought to be studying the sociopolitical system and taking advantage of its patterns and loopholes. The best political ideas are those that most improve the circumstances of a given person. There are many objective measures one could use to evaluate them. That would be the only way to have a rational discussion of politics.
That’s a good point, the only problem is that has nothing to do with politics as commonly understood. You are just changing subjects, not turning the politics on its head.
I guess it’s to be born in a powerful family of oligarchs, preferably ones that are not abusive to their children, as an intelligent non-asperger person who can learn how to play the game.
Uhm… any useful reincarnation tips?
Actually, I like your idea. I am just not sure how big change could we make “merely” by studying the system and applying the advantages. More than zero, certainly, but we could still be kinda disappointed with the result, because we expected more. (Also, it may require us to sacrifice some other values.)
But taking advantage of the system seems to me like an experimental verification that your model is correct.
This reminds me: many years ago, one of my friends expressed a strong political opinion that in capitalism you don’t need any skills or work to get rich; you just have to start with some money and then it automatically makes more money. Thus people born in rich families get more rich, and others don’t have a chance. I said that to make your money make more money, you still need some plan, and you need to execute it, which not literally eveyone can do. My friend objected that you just pay other people to do the work and the thinking for you, and that’s all.
At that moment I started playing with numbers, and showed my friend that he could get enough money to start a company and pay two or three people for one year… which according to his simplistic model should be enough to start the accelerating money spiral (he just needs to make one of them a manager, who would design plans and make the other person or two realize them; and then my friend can pay them fixed salary and take all the profit). I told him that if he really believes that, I will get him the money, in return for a part of the profit. My friend quickly updated his theory, and said that this is not enough, and you need 100 × more money to get to the level where money starts making other money automatically. (Of course, no justification for the number 100 was provided.)
Well more than zero is still more than zero, right? I think if you expect to be disappointed by the results of an endeavor, then you may as well revise your expectations downward from the start, so I don’t see that as much of an obstacle. (I also don’t believe in the existence of values, so no problem there either).
I actually agree with your friend that you don’t need any special skills to get rich(er) (neither in capitalism nor in any other socioeconomic system), you just have to do the bare minimum required not to sink your business, (and yes you can pay other people to do the work and the thinking for you), but I would disagree with the notion that this will lead to automatic success.
Since there are many more poor people than rich people, it follows that not only is it difficult for poor people to become rich but also that it is easy for rich people to become poor. Some rich people get richer, but most get poorer. (Nonetheless, I do believe that the richer you are the harder it is to fall to a given level of wealth) Hence, it is my belief that the most successful businessmen are outliers and their success is mostly due to variables that are out of their control.
Ultimately, I think your friend’s reluctance toward your plan was justified (though maybe not for the same reasons he had).