I find the process of (1) identifying trolls, (2) trying to convince them to stop posting and (3) kicking them off if they don’t listen to be a very unpleasant experience. It introduces all sorts of negativity and it makes me uncomfortable, mainly because the norms and boundaries are subjective and I empathize (but don’t sympathize) with the trolls.
I think it would be best if the process was entirely objective and automated—people could know the rules from the About page and altercations with trolls wouldn’t be required.
The main rule would be that people cannot comment if their karma is below some negative value K.
If we wanted to give a “time-out” (-->stop posting (for a long while)) instead of a ban, then this could be automated by an algorithm whereby anyone with negative karma gets one karma point per day until they’re back to 0.
Given this second scheme, I think that even a K as high as K=-1 would be fine, because then a person with K=-1 only needs to wait one day until they can comment again.
I agree that an automated system would be preferable. By getting (temporarily) deactivated without fanfare, the actual trolls would be robbed of the attention and responses they crave, and the naive innocents will be more likely to believe they’ve actually done something wrong and should reconsider their behavior, instead of getting self-righteous and feeling maligned and aggrieved.
I definitely see your point: if the system is automated and objective, (that is, without any component of public shaming), trolls won’t feel as much as though it’s a social norm preventing them from posting so they will feel like it’s OK to work around the system. However, it’s the atmosphere of public shaming that makes me uncomfortable.
We could try to emphasize the social norm as much as possible in the About description, something along the lines of, “If you have negative karma, it is because the net opinion of readers on Less Wrong of your comments is negative. Thus, users with negative karma are discouraged from commenting by an interruption in their ability to post comments.”
Also, I submit that it wouldn’t be that rewarding to sock-puppet yourself to positive karma, just to post a comment and get negative karma again.
I find the process [...] to be a very unpleasant experience. It introduces all sorts of negativity and it makes me uncomfortable
Not me. And anyway, it’s not you in charge of this process, so you could try to ignore it to avoid the stress, if at all possible. (It may not be.)
A lot of negativity seems unavoidable whenever anyone comes around the community disagrees with, either as a troll (like the “immortal” guy), or just as someone pushing weird and likely wrong opinions. I’m not sure the “kicking” part itself is a big part of that, so I’m not sure your solution would help.
I find the process of (1) identifying trolls, (2) trying to convince them to stop posting and (3) kicking them off if they don’t listen to be a very unpleasant experience. It introduces all sorts of negativity and it makes me uncomfortable, mainly because the norms and boundaries are subjective and I empathize (but don’t sympathize) with the trolls.
I think it would be best if the process was entirely objective and automated—people could know the rules from the About page and altercations with trolls wouldn’t be required.
The main rule would be that people cannot comment if their karma is below some negative value K.
If we wanted to give a “time-out” (-->stop posting (for a long while)) instead of a ban, then this could be automated by an algorithm whereby anyone with negative karma gets one karma point per day until they’re back to 0.
Given this second scheme, I think that even a K as high as K=-1 would be fine, because then a person with K=-1 only needs to wait one day until they can comment again.
I suggested something similar recently.
I agree that an automated system would be preferable. By getting (temporarily) deactivated without fanfare, the actual trolls would be robbed of the attention and responses they crave, and the naive innocents will be more likely to believe they’ve actually done something wrong and should reconsider their behavior, instead of getting self-righteous and feeling maligned and aggrieved.
If you automate it people will just sockpuppet their way around it, and other such attacks.
What we have is working well. Let’s not create a system that people will be encouraged to game.
I definitely see your point: if the system is automated and objective, (that is, without any component of public shaming), trolls won’t feel as much as though it’s a social norm preventing them from posting so they will feel like it’s OK to work around the system. However, it’s the atmosphere of public shaming that makes me uncomfortable.
We could try to emphasize the social norm as much as possible in the About description, something along the lines of, “If you have negative karma, it is because the net opinion of readers on Less Wrong of your comments is negative. Thus, users with negative karma are discouraged from commenting by an interruption in their ability to post comments.”
Also, I submit that it wouldn’t be that rewarding to sock-puppet yourself to positive karma, just to post a comment and get negative karma again.
Not me. And anyway, it’s not you in charge of this process, so you could try to ignore it to avoid the stress, if at all possible. (It may not be.)
A lot of negativity seems unavoidable whenever anyone comes around the community disagrees with, either as a troll (like the “immortal” guy), or just as someone pushing weird and likely wrong opinions. I’m not sure the “kicking” part itself is a big part of that, so I’m not sure your solution would help.