Are we really still beating up on group selectionism here, Eliezer?
I think this fallacy needs to be corrected. Yes, group selection is real. Maybe not in the anthropomorphic way of organisms “voluntarily” restraining their breeding, but in terms of adaptation, yes, individual genomes will adapt to survive better as per the requirements of the group. They have no choice BUT to do this, else they go extinct.
The example Eliezer gave of insect populations being selected for low population, actually proves group selectionism. Why? Because it doesn’t matter that the low group population was achieved by cannibalism, so long as the populations were low so that their prey-population would not crash.
Saying group selection isn’t real is as fallacious as saying a “Frodo” gene cannot exist, despite the fact that it does, in reality.
The criticism as I read it isn’t against group selection in general—just looking at Eliezer’s examples should tell you that he believes a type of group selection can and does exist.
The initial idea behind group selection, however, was that genes would be selected for that were detrimental to the individual, yet positive for the group. Wade’s experiment proved this wrong, without eliminating the idea of group selection altogether.
This is what Eliezer is saying is an evolutionary fairy tale. When group selection occurs, it absolutely must occur via a mechanism that gives individual genes an advantage. It cannot occur via allele sacrifice without in some way increasing the survival of the allele, because that allele will decrease in the population, preventing future sacrifice.
It’s the bias that led to the hypothesis that is obviously wrong in hindsight, and that is what Eliezer speaks against, not group selection in general (though I do think he thinks group selection isn’t nearly as influential as group selectionists wish it were). Anthropomorphic optimism is the reason group selectionists first hypothesized the pretty picture of restrained breeding, when the strategy that makes the most sense evolutionarily is cannibalism, and if they had been aware of their bias they may have actually predicted the optimal strategy before performing the experiment, instead of being so completely wrong.
Are we really still beating up on group selectionism here, Eliezer?
I think this fallacy needs to be corrected. Yes, group selection is real. Maybe not in the anthropomorphic way of organisms “voluntarily” restraining their breeding, but in terms of adaptation, yes, individual genomes will adapt to survive better as per the requirements of the group. They have no choice BUT to do this, else they go extinct.
The example Eliezer gave of insect populations being selected for low population, actually proves group selectionism. Why? Because it doesn’t matter that the low group population was achieved by cannibalism, so long as the populations were low so that their prey-population would not crash.
Saying group selection isn’t real is as fallacious as saying a “Frodo” gene cannot exist, despite the fact that it does, in reality.
Can we correct these misconceptions yet?
The criticism as I read it isn’t against group selection in general—just looking at Eliezer’s examples should tell you that he believes a type of group selection can and does exist.
The initial idea behind group selection, however, was that genes would be selected for that were detrimental to the individual, yet positive for the group. Wade’s experiment proved this wrong, without eliminating the idea of group selection altogether.
This is what Eliezer is saying is an evolutionary fairy tale. When group selection occurs, it absolutely must occur via a mechanism that gives individual genes an advantage. It cannot occur via allele sacrifice without in some way increasing the survival of the allele, because that allele will decrease in the population, preventing future sacrifice.
It’s the bias that led to the hypothesis that is obviously wrong in hindsight, and that is what Eliezer speaks against, not group selection in general (though I do think he thinks group selection isn’t nearly as influential as group selectionists wish it were). Anthropomorphic optimism is the reason group selectionists first hypothesized the pretty picture of restrained breeding, when the strategy that makes the most sense evolutionarily is cannibalism, and if they had been aware of their bias they may have actually predicted the optimal strategy before performing the experiment, instead of being so completely wrong.