Now into the more speculative realm. I would guess that retaining at least some control should be strongly prioritised over any amount of pleasure on the level of the conscious system, and that this may even be a human universal.
(I’m not fully convinced of the conscious/unconscious split you outline, but let’s go with it for the sake of the argument. It’s certainly a reasonable hypothesis.)
Why would you side with the conscious mind? Do you have a specific reason for this, besides “because it’s the one that holds the power” (which is perfectly acceptable, just not what I’d do in this case)?
As a data point, I personally reject it. Regardless of whether wireheading is actually a good idea, I don’t care about staying in control. I also don’t see my conscious mind as being particularly involved in decision making or value considerations (except as a guiding force on an instrumental level) and I see no reason to change that.
I’m generalizing fairly sloppily now, but I’d expect this to be a fairly widespread Buddhist attitude, for example (and that’s also my background, though I wouldn’t identify with it anymore).
My most obvious objection to wireheading was, “it might be awesome, but I might miss something and end up in a local maximum instead of a global one”, not “it’s gonna enslave me”. I’m perfectly aware that, if wireheaded, I’d have little conscious control left, if any. That does not bother me in the least. Caring that much about control is a perspective I did not anticipate and it does help explain the problem.
But even if it were not true, well, some people move abroad leaving their families and friends and jobs behind, others can’t imagine that. Does it break the psychological unity of humanity? There were people who didn’t leave their country even if it was the only real chance to save their lives. Why do you expect that we will all agree on a hypothetical whose role in our evolution is non-existent and which belongs to the class of things which we consistently can’t reason well about, when we differ in more mundane (and therefore evolutionary salient) decisions?
Point taken. I thought wireheading was a simple, easy-to-understand and realistic scenario. That doesn’t seem to be the case at all. Taken as a more complicated thought experiment, the rejection and varying intuitions do make sense.
This gets even clearer when I look at this framing:
Wireheading was traditionally described as total dictatorship of the unconscious mind, and is therefore rejected whenever the conscious mind is under control.
That’s pretty much the opposite way of how I’d describe it, even though it’s factually totally fine. The metaphor that I was thinking of the first time I saw wireheading described was liberation and freedom from suffering, not dictatorship!
Also, when evaluating it, I was falling back on “wireheady” experiences I already had, like states of high absorption or equanimity in meditation, use of particular drugs (very limited, for health reasons, but never regretted, nor was addiction ever an issue), very intense (semi-)lucid dreams and so on. So I classified wireheading always as “totally doable and somewhat familiar”, not “who knows what will happen?”. I assumed that anyone thinking seriously about it would have comparable experiences to rely on; maybe that’s not so.
Maybe this very different perspective explains the intuitions, but I’m not sure it helps me form an opinion on actual wireheading.
Why would you side with the conscious mind? Do you have a specific reason for this, besides “because it’s the one that holds the power” (which is perfectly acceptable, just not what I’d do in this case)?
I am not siding with it, I am it. When it holds the power, there is nothing besides it to communicate with you in this dialog.
As a data point, I personally reject it. Regardless of whether wireheading is actually a good idea, I don’t care about staying in control. I also don’t see my conscious mind as being particularly involved in decision making or value considerations (except as a guiding force on an instrumental level) and I see no reason to change that.
Good point. The choice of words unconscious/conscious was probably not the best one. Not all parts of the latter process feel conscious, and the former can be involved in conscious activities, e.g. use of language. I should have rather said short term or long term, or have stuck with the standard near/far, although I am not sure whether the meanings precisely overlap.
Buddhism, experiences with drugs, meditations: That may be the core reason for disagreement. Not only experiences can change preferences—inferential gap of sorts, but not one likely to be overcome by rational argument—but reactions to specific experiences differ. Some people hate certain drugs after the first use, others love them.
Buddhism, as far as I know, is certainly a powerful philosophy whose values and practices (meditation, introspection, nirvana) are more compatible with wireheading than most of the western tradition. It is also very alien to me.
(I’m not fully convinced of the conscious/unconscious split you outline, but let’s go with it for the sake of the argument. It’s certainly a reasonable hypothesis.)
Why would you side with the conscious mind? Do you have a specific reason for this, besides “because it’s the one that holds the power” (which is perfectly acceptable, just not what I’d do in this case)?
As a data point, I personally reject it. Regardless of whether wireheading is actually a good idea, I don’t care about staying in control. I also don’t see my conscious mind as being particularly involved in decision making or value considerations (except as a guiding force on an instrumental level) and I see no reason to change that.
I’m generalizing fairly sloppily now, but I’d expect this to be a fairly widespread Buddhist attitude, for example (and that’s also my background, though I wouldn’t identify with it anymore).
My most obvious objection to wireheading was, “it might be awesome, but I might miss something and end up in a local maximum instead of a global one”, not “it’s gonna enslave me”. I’m perfectly aware that, if wireheaded, I’d have little conscious control left, if any. That does not bother me in the least. Caring that much about control is a perspective I did not anticipate and it does help explain the problem.
Point taken. I thought wireheading was a simple, easy-to-understand and realistic scenario. That doesn’t seem to be the case at all. Taken as a more complicated thought experiment, the rejection and varying intuitions do make sense.
This gets even clearer when I look at this framing:
That’s pretty much the opposite way of how I’d describe it, even though it’s factually totally fine. The metaphor that I was thinking of the first time I saw wireheading described was liberation and freedom from suffering, not dictatorship!
Also, when evaluating it, I was falling back on “wireheady” experiences I already had, like states of high absorption or equanimity in meditation, use of particular drugs (very limited, for health reasons, but never regretted, nor was addiction ever an issue), very intense (semi-)lucid dreams and so on. So I classified wireheading always as “totally doable and somewhat familiar”, not “who knows what will happen?”. I assumed that anyone thinking seriously about it would have comparable experiences to rely on; maybe that’s not so.
Maybe this very different perspective explains the intuitions, but I’m not sure it helps me form an opinion on actual wireheading.
I am not siding with it, I am it. When it holds the power, there is nothing besides it to communicate with you in this dialog.
Good point. The choice of words unconscious/conscious was probably not the best one. Not all parts of the latter process feel conscious, and the former can be involved in conscious activities, e.g. use of language. I should have rather said short term or long term, or have stuck with the standard near/far, although I am not sure whether the meanings precisely overlap.
Buddhism, experiences with drugs, meditations: That may be the core reason for disagreement. Not only experiences can change preferences—inferential gap of sorts, but not one likely to be overcome by rational argument—but reactions to specific experiences differ. Some people hate certain drugs after the first use, others love them.
Buddhism, as far as I know, is certainly a powerful philosophy whose values and practices (meditation, introspection, nirvana) are more compatible with wireheading than most of the western tradition. It is also very alien to me.