This is part of why I referenced expected utility maximizers. Expected utility maximizers don’t choose what just makes them feel like they’ve done something.
Correct and I don’t disagree with this. An actual expected utility maximizer (or an approximation of one) would have no interest in wireheading. Why do you think humans are best understood as such utility maximizers? If we were, shouldn’t everyone have an aversion, or rather, indifference to wireheading? After all, if you offered an expected paperclip maximizer the option of wireheading, it would simply reject it as if you had offered to build a bunch of staples. It would have no strong reaction either way. That isn’t what’s happening with humans.
I’m trying to think of a realistic complex utility function that would predict such behavior, but can’t think of anything.
And plenty of people aren’t, or will play tetris but won’t do heroin. And of course there are people who will lay down their lives for another—to call wireheading a revealed preference of humans is flat wrong.
True, there isn’t anything like a universally compelling wirehead option available. Each option is, so far, preferred only by minorities, although in total, they are still fairly widespread and their market share is rising. I did express this to sloppily.
Why do you think humans are best understood as such utility maximizers? If we were, shouldn’t everyone have an aversion, or rather, indifference to wireheading? After all, if you offered an expected paperclip maximizer the option of wireheading, it would simply reject it as if you had offered to build a bunch of staples. It would have no strong reaction either way. That isn’t what’s happening with humans.
I’m trying to think of a realistic complex utility function that would predict such behavior, but can’t think of anything.
Yeah, true. For humans, pleasure is at least a consideration. I guess I see it as part of our brain structure used in learning, a part that has acquired its own purpose because we’re adaptation-executers, not fitness maximizers. But then, so is liking science, so it’s not like I’m dismissing it. If I had a utility function, pleasure would definitely be in there.
So how do you like something without having it be all-consuming? First, care about other things too—I have terms in my hypothetical utility function that refer to external reality. Second, have there be a maximum possible effect—either because there is a maximum amount of reward we can feel, or because what registers in the brain as “reward” quickly decreases in value as you get more of it. Third, have the other stuff you care about outweigh just pursuing the one term to its maximum.
I actually wrote a comment about this recently, which is an interesting coincidence :D I’ve become more and more convinced that a bounded utility function is most human-like. The question is then whether the maximum possible utility from internal reward outweighs everyday values of everything else or not.
I still need to think more about whether expected utility maximizers are a good human model. My main problem is that I can’t see realistic implementations in the brain (and pathways for evolution to get them there). I’ll focus my study more on that; I think I dismissed them too easily.
Correct and I don’t disagree with this. An actual expected utility maximizer (or an approximation of one) would have no interest in wireheading. Why do you think humans are best understood as such utility maximizers? If we were, shouldn’t everyone have an aversion, or rather, indifference to wireheading? After all, if you offered an expected paperclip maximizer the option of wireheading, it would simply reject it as if you had offered to build a bunch of staples. It would have no strong reaction either way. That isn’t what’s happening with humans.
I’m trying to think of a realistic complex utility function that would predict such behavior, but can’t think of anything.
True, there isn’t anything like a universally compelling wirehead option available. Each option is, so far, preferred only by minorities, although in total, they are still fairly widespread and their market share is rising. I did express this to sloppily.
Yeah, true. For humans, pleasure is at least a consideration. I guess I see it as part of our brain structure used in learning, a part that has acquired its own purpose because we’re adaptation-executers, not fitness maximizers. But then, so is liking science, so it’s not like I’m dismissing it. If I had a utility function, pleasure would definitely be in there.
So how do you like something without having it be all-consuming? First, care about other things too—I have terms in my hypothetical utility function that refer to external reality. Second, have there be a maximum possible effect—either because there is a maximum amount of reward we can feel, or because what registers in the brain as “reward” quickly decreases in value as you get more of it. Third, have the other stuff you care about outweigh just pursuing the one term to its maximum.
I actually wrote a comment about this recently, which is an interesting coincidence :D I’ve become more and more convinced that a bounded utility function is most human-like. The question is then whether the maximum possible utility from internal reward outweighs everyday values of everything else or not.
I agree with you on the bounded utility function.
I still need to think more about whether expected utility maximizers are a good human model. My main problem is that I can’t see realistic implementations in the brain (and pathways for evolution to get them there). I’ll focus my study more on that; I think I dismissed them too easily.