Incorrect; I brought it up because it’s part of how-things-are-here that you seemed not to realize that we realize. We acknowledge that we’re not perfectly rational, or even rational to the limits of what human minds can accomplish, but we still do have expectations and standards.
I don’t disbelieve you, but that’s not what I was trying to get at. This site is intended for people who are trying to improve their rationality and have already passed a certain threshold of rationality. The top post poses the question of where that threshold should be, not whether we should have one at all. At least three of the points in your original comment are in conflict with that intention:
the fact that a lot of people here think that being religious is irrational doesn’t mean that it actually is irrational.
what one humans deems rational another might deem irrational
Religion is now considered a great example of irrationality but only because of the current political and social context(being atheist is “in”). There are beliefs as irrational as but that are simply not pointed out as vehemently.
Until we have AGI it will always be humans who will judge what is rational and what isn’t. I don’t see my points as being contradictory to the site’s intention unless you want to assert that there is an absolute judge of rationality somewhere.
Passed a certain threshold of rationality? What would that threshold be? Do you think that Aumann has passed this threshold? Who will judge who passed it and who didn’t? Of course we could use religion as a filter but this only tells us that religion has become a salient example of supposed irrationality.
As for the non-subjective definition of rationality I think this is highly questionable even from a bayesian perspective. I’ll say it again: even bayesian superintelligences will disagree if they have different priors. So the question becomes: is there a correct prior? AFAIK this question is still open.
And as humans we certainly all have different priors which implies my point:
what one humans deems rational another might deem irrational
I have other things to do with my evening, so I will probably not be responding to further posts on this thread until tomorrow, and I may not wind up getting back to this thread at all. If someone else would like to pick up the conversation, that’s fine with me.
Until we have AGI it will always be humans who will judge what is rational and what isn’t. I don’t see my points as being contradictory to the site’s intention unless you want to assert that there is an absolute judge of rationality somewhere.
False dichotomy. There are definitely other options between considering all rationality subjective and requiring there to be one person who has all the answers. Many topics have been discussed here and elsewhere in the rationalist community and are considered resolved; our normal method is to use those as benchmarks.
Passed a certain threshold of rationality? What would that threshold be?
Opening that question for discussion was a large part of the point of the original post; I expect it to be answered within the next few days. Also note that the question is context-specific: I’m only referring to the expected-rationality threshold here at Less Wrong.
Do you think that Aumann has passed this threshold? Who will judge who passed it and who didn’t? Of course we could use religion as a filter but this only tells us that religion has become a salient example of supposed irrationality.
Religion is one of the benchmarks, yes, and there are reasons for that. (No, I don’t intend to discuss them; perhaps some of the other posters will give you relevant links if you ask.) As to how the passing of those benchmarks is judged, the whole group is involved in that by way of voting and discussion, and so far that appears to be a useful method that’s less subject to bias than traditional forums with formal moderation.
As for the non-subjective definition of rationality I think this is highly questionable even from a bayesian perspective. I’ll say it again: even bayesian superintelligences will disagree if they have different priors. So the question becomes: is there a correct prior? AFAIK this question is still open.
We don’t have a rationally-determined, uncontroversial method for determining priors, so that obviously won’t be one of the benchmarks that we expect people to pass. Using Bayesian reasoning could be, though, or updating because of evidence regardless of the method.
I have other things to do with my evening, so I will probably not be responding to further posts on this thread until tomorrow, and I may not wind up getting back to this thread at all.
I don’t see anything in your answer that is worthwhile for me to comment on, so yes I consider this finished.
Incorrect; I brought it up because it’s part of how-things-are-here that you seemed not to realize that we realize. We acknowledge that we’re not perfectly rational, or even rational to the limits of what human minds can accomplish, but we still do have expectations and standards.
Quoting myself:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/1lv/the_wannabe_rational/1gei
I don’t disbelieve you, but that’s not what I was trying to get at. This site is intended for people who are trying to improve their rationality and have already passed a certain threshold of rationality. The top post poses the question of where that threshold should be, not whether we should have one at all. At least three of the points in your original comment are in conflict with that intention:
We do have a non-subjective definition of rationality, by the way.
Until we have AGI it will always be humans who will judge what is rational and what isn’t. I don’t see my points as being contradictory to the site’s intention unless you want to assert that there is an absolute judge of rationality somewhere.
Passed a certain threshold of rationality? What would that threshold be? Do you think that Aumann has passed this threshold? Who will judge who passed it and who didn’t? Of course we could use religion as a filter but this only tells us that religion has become a salient example of supposed irrationality.
As for the non-subjective definition of rationality I think this is highly questionable even from a bayesian perspective. I’ll say it again: even bayesian superintelligences will disagree if they have different priors. So the question becomes: is there a correct prior? AFAIK this question is still open.
And as humans we certainly all have different priors which implies my point:
I have other things to do with my evening, so I will probably not be responding to further posts on this thread until tomorrow, and I may not wind up getting back to this thread at all. If someone else would like to pick up the conversation, that’s fine with me.
False dichotomy. There are definitely other options between considering all rationality subjective and requiring there to be one person who has all the answers. Many topics have been discussed here and elsewhere in the rationalist community and are considered resolved; our normal method is to use those as benchmarks.
Opening that question for discussion was a large part of the point of the original post; I expect it to be answered within the next few days. Also note that the question is context-specific: I’m only referring to the expected-rationality threshold here at Less Wrong.
Religion is one of the benchmarks, yes, and there are reasons for that. (No, I don’t intend to discuss them; perhaps some of the other posters will give you relevant links if you ask.) As to how the passing of those benchmarks is judged, the whole group is involved in that by way of voting and discussion, and so far that appears to be a useful method that’s less subject to bias than traditional forums with formal moderation.
We don’t have a rationally-determined, uncontroversial method for determining priors, so that obviously won’t be one of the benchmarks that we expect people to pass. Using Bayesian reasoning could be, though, or updating because of evidence regardless of the method.
I don’t see anything in your answer that is worthwhile for me to comment on, so yes I consider this finished.