I applaud you for reconsidering. I look forward to seeing any dialogue between you and komponisto, if he is comfortable with it. I still think that this hypothesis is a bit tenuous:
I think you were trying to deliberately draw criticism so as to fake being wounded by it with the ultimate aim of making some point—perhaps a point about double standards.
I’m much more inclined to take komponisto’s own explanation of his words at face value, which I’m not sure if you’ve seen yet. I think he’s already answered some of your questions. He says:
I expected it to be controversial in the sense that I thought people would be strongly inclined to reject the proposal. It sounds incredibly naïve now, but I thought people would reply by saying “no, that wouldn’t work” or “that’s not the real source of the problem” or “you won’t find a solution by going down that particular path”.
So it sounds like he had an intuition he was unsure about, and decided to toss it out to LessWrong to figure out how to evaluate it. This behavior reminds me of the following INTP profile based on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator:
Where the extraversion of the iNtuition function becomes obvious is during discussions, especially heated ones. In contrast to INTJs, an INTP will often make controversial, speculative points of argument, often annoying the discussion-partner, and make them in such a way as to leave the impression that he is very serious about what he says. In reality, the INTP is not actually even certain himself whether he really stands by what he is saying, but his Ne strongly suggests that there must be a core of truth there. The purpose then of his outspoken style of argument is to sharpen his own intuitive understanding by testing the reaction of the listener, and indeed to examine the logic of his own arguments in real time while speaking them out. On occasion, INTPs may seem brash and tactless, but for themselves it is part of their way of getting closer to the truth. This is another aspect of the Ne grappling with the external world (in this case discussion with another) to understand it. The Ne provides the raw material for the Ti core to analyse. The INTJ, on the other hand, with Ni dominant and Te as secondary, tends to avoid letting uncertain speculative ideas out in the open: he presents a more considered structured viewpoint to the world while holding his private thoughts free for intuitive reasoning.
Since I engage in this behavior all the time, I instantly suspected that komponisto might be operating out of a similar psychology. In fact, his acknowledgment that his statements were controversial could have been read as acknowledging valid reasons for controversy (of course, acknowledging controversy can also be a way of trying to attract attention and imply that people who disagree are idiots, but that didn’t fit the overall tone of his comment). If so, then his comment could be understood as something like “here’s an uncomfortable thought I’m having… other people think it’s wrong, but I’m not entirely sure exactly why it’s wrong and what is wrong with it, so please help me figure it out.” Given what I know of komponisto’s attitudes, and given my own proclivity to suggest controversial ideas to help me make up my mind about them, that’s pretty much how I read his initial comment.
I understand that your experience with internet discussions may have led you to start with different priors, and I’m glad you’ve begun to question whether they apply in this case on this website. And if you’re not familiar with the psychology I describe above or can’t relate to it yourself, then it’s not your fault for not considering it as a possible explanation for komponisto’s words.
I find “raising uncomfortable intuition to figure out if there’s any grain of truth involved, or if it deserves to be debunked” to be a more parsimonious explanation than “deliberately drawing criticism so as to fake being wounded by it.” I do think it’s a good thing for rational discussion on LessWrong if people can raise controversial issues they are grappling with and try to use the resulting discussions to figure out their positions.
Would it be better for men (or anyone) with a highly controversial intuition to just sit on it, and have it constantly niggling away at their psyche? No. The only way to handle that belief is to put it out in the open and discuss it with other people.
Of course, people should be tactful and consider how their audience will feel when they express that intution. But like in this case, they can’t always anticipate every sort of reaction they will get, especially in subjects with great inferential distance. komponisto says he did his best to be tactful, and he still got jumped on; the reactions he got were simply different from what he anticipated. That difference isn’t because he is a bad person of any sort who is trying to prove that people here have double standards, but because there are things he simply did not realize.
The notion “don’t raise any controversial issue you are grappling with that someone with great inferential distance from you might find offensive despite your best attempts to be tactful” is not a good principle for a rationalist community. It would shut down too many discussions, and it’s already doing so to komponisto now that he’s been driven to vows of self-censorship.
And to respond also to Hugh and also, I think, Nancy, my apology, if komponisto convinces me I’m wrong, will include an apology for attributing motive with too little evidence.
That’s great… but I will note what I said before: “here’s my negative opinion of what you say, and it’s your job to prove it misplaced” may not be the most interpersonally effective mode of communication.
As always, Hugh, your comments are long, reasonable, and well worth reading. I will just be responding to a few points, though.
...komponisto’s own explanation of his words … which I’m not sure if you’ve seen yet. I think he’s already answered some of your questions.
Yes, I have seen. Yes, he has answered some.
So it sounds like [komponisto] had an intuition he was unsure about, and decided to toss it out to LessWrong to figure out how to evaluate it. This behavior reminds me of the following INTP profile based on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator:
… In contrast to INTJs, an INTP will often make controversial, speculative points of argument, often annoying the discussion-partner, and make them in such a way as to leave the impression that he is very serious about what he says. In reality, the INTP is not actually even certain himself whether he really stands by what he is saying, but his Ne strongly suggests that there must be a core of truth there. The purpose then of his outspoken style of argument is to sharpen his own intuitive understanding by testing the reaction of the listener, and indeed to examine the logic of his own arguments in real time while speaking them out. …
Since I engage in this behavior all the time, I instantly suspected that komponisto might be operating out of a similar psychology.
Interesting. I am an INTP myself. I will be sure to avail myself of that excuse the next time my intuition and impulsiveness get me into trouble. ;)
I do think it’s a good thing for rational discussion on LessWrong if people can raise controversial issues they are grappling with and try to use the resulting discussions to figure out their positions.
I agree. And I certainly have little to complain about regarding the help I have received in this thread. (That is not sarcasm, by the way. Something more like sincere sardonic irony. I remain impressed with the level of rationality and civility).
Would it be better for men (or anyone) with a highly controversial intuition to just sit on it, and have it constantly niggling away at their psyche? No. The only way to handle that belief is to put it out in the open and discuss it with other people.
I’m so glad to have you on my side! (Now that was a more pure irony.)
… I will note what I said before: “here’s my negative opinion of what you say, and it’s your job to prove it misplaced” may not be the most interpersonally effective mode of communication.
True, but I honestly don’t think I have deviated all that far from your ideals here. If I recall, my first direct communication with komponisto on this thread was a request that he clarify some things that he had said. He declined to do so.
I applaud you for reconsidering. I look forward to seeing any dialogue between you and komponisto, if he is comfortable with it. I still think that this hypothesis is a bit tenuous:
I’m much more inclined to take komponisto’s own explanation of his words at face value, which I’m not sure if you’ve seen yet. I think he’s already answered some of your questions. He says:
So it sounds like he had an intuition he was unsure about, and decided to toss it out to LessWrong to figure out how to evaluate it. This behavior reminds me of the following INTP profile based on the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator:
Since I engage in this behavior all the time, I instantly suspected that komponisto might be operating out of a similar psychology. In fact, his acknowledgment that his statements were controversial could have been read as acknowledging valid reasons for controversy (of course, acknowledging controversy can also be a way of trying to attract attention and imply that people who disagree are idiots, but that didn’t fit the overall tone of his comment). If so, then his comment could be understood as something like “here’s an uncomfortable thought I’m having… other people think it’s wrong, but I’m not entirely sure exactly why it’s wrong and what is wrong with it, so please help me figure it out.” Given what I know of komponisto’s attitudes, and given my own proclivity to suggest controversial ideas to help me make up my mind about them, that’s pretty much how I read his initial comment.
I understand that your experience with internet discussions may have led you to start with different priors, and I’m glad you’ve begun to question whether they apply in this case on this website. And if you’re not familiar with the psychology I describe above or can’t relate to it yourself, then it’s not your fault for not considering it as a possible explanation for komponisto’s words.
I find “raising uncomfortable intuition to figure out if there’s any grain of truth involved, or if it deserves to be debunked” to be a more parsimonious explanation than “deliberately drawing criticism so as to fake being wounded by it.” I do think it’s a good thing for rational discussion on LessWrong if people can raise controversial issues they are grappling with and try to use the resulting discussions to figure out their positions.
Would it be better for men (or anyone) with a highly controversial intuition to just sit on it, and have it constantly niggling away at their psyche? No. The only way to handle that belief is to put it out in the open and discuss it with other people.
Of course, people should be tactful and consider how their audience will feel when they express that intution. But like in this case, they can’t always anticipate every sort of reaction they will get, especially in subjects with great inferential distance. komponisto says he did his best to be tactful, and he still got jumped on; the reactions he got were simply different from what he anticipated. That difference isn’t because he is a bad person of any sort who is trying to prove that people here have double standards, but because there are things he simply did not realize.
The notion “don’t raise any controversial issue you are grappling with that someone with great inferential distance from you might find offensive despite your best attempts to be tactful” is not a good principle for a rationalist community. It would shut down too many discussions, and it’s already doing so to komponisto now that he’s been driven to vows of self-censorship.
That’s great… but I will note what I said before: “here’s my negative opinion of what you say, and it’s your job to prove it misplaced” may not be the most interpersonally effective mode of communication.
As always, Hugh, your comments are long, reasonable, and well worth reading. I will just be responding to a few points, though.
Yes, I have seen. Yes, he has answered some.
Interesting. I am an INTP myself. I will be sure to avail myself of that excuse the next time my intuition and impulsiveness get me into trouble. ;)
I agree. And I certainly have little to complain about regarding the help I have received in this thread. (That is not sarcasm, by the way. Something more like sincere sardonic irony. I remain impressed with the level of rationality and civility).
I’m so glad to have you on my side! (Now that was a more pure irony.)
True, but I honestly don’t think I have deviated all that far from your ideals here. If I recall, my first direct communication with komponisto on this thread was a request that he clarify some things that he had said. He declined to do so.