Are you seriously suggesting that women are naturally good at social games and grace, but that men are not? And moreover that despite apparently being better at social intuition, they fail to understand that men aren’t?
This thread is getting increasingly hostile, but none of it seems to be flamebait—apparently many LWers have genuinely warped perceptions about gender.
And moreover that despite apparently being better at social intuition, they fail to understand that men aren’t?
I don’t suggest that women fail to understand that individual men aren’t good at social perception or intuition (as you imply, that would indeed be contradictory); I’m merely suggesting that women are prone to perceiving this failure as meaning the men in question are broken (i.e. not “real” men).
The default tendency is for people to assume that people unlike themselves are defective; it is an uncommon person who can look at a typical person of the opposite sex and not see an apparently-broken person of their own sex.
(Presumably, this is because our mental machinery for predicting others’ behavior relies far too heavily on our own habits, experiences, ways of thinking, etc.)
I don’t suggest that women fail to understand that individual men aren’t good at social perception or intuition (as you imply, that would indeed be contradictory); I’m merely suggesting that women are prone to perceiving this failure as meaning the men in question are broken (i.e. not “real” people).
Fixed that for you.
The default tendency is for people to assume that people unlike themselves are defective; it is an uncommon person who can look at a typical person of the opposite sex and not see an apparently-broken person of their own sex.
(Presumably, this is because our mental machinery for predicting others’ behavior relies far too heavily on our own habits, experiences, ways of thinking, etc.)
I’ve been thinking about that. I’m not sure what the solution is. Thinking that other’s behaviour is unlike our own is very unhelpful, because it doesn’t say which bits are unlike our own.
Also people tend to form groups of people like themselves, so there is less data to gather naturally. I’m also not sure fiction helps either, it tends to be unrealistic.
… apparently many LWers have genuinely warped perceptions about gender.
Well, when you get much of your information about gender from online discussions which are totally dominated by your own sex, of course you develop some weird ideas.
Just for laughs, and perhaps a bit of consciousness-raising, I would like to lurk a bit at a female-dominated forum which discusses gender politics, inter-gender communication, and perhaps the female variant of PUA (a la Cosmo magazine, but non commercial). Someplace halfway intelligent. Anyone have any suggestions?
Are you seriously suggesting that women are naturally good at social games and grace, but that men are not?
Let me put it this way: there are far more creepy men than there are creepy women. And there are more autistic men than autistic women. I strongly suspect that women are less likely to fail as badly in social situations as some men sometimes do. And I don’t mean ordinary social failure, I mean “Go away or I’m calling the police” level of social failure.
And moreover that despite apparently being better at social intuition, they fail to understand that men aren’t?
Not that they don’t understand, just that individual women tend to judge men harshly for not living up to the standards that they set.
This thread is generating an interesting collective definition of creepy. I don’t think I disagree with it, but it’s most interesting to me because it seems to not fit any of the concise definitions that have appeared.
I think it’s a big jump from
women are less likely to fail [… in a] “Go away or I’m calling the police” level of social failure.
to
Women, as a rule, are themselves “naturals” in this sense [naturally good at the social games and graces]
I guess I think of those as being different enough to not fall on the same spectrum. To me, someone who is not good at the social graces is still very far away from someone upon whom the police could reasonably be called. Also, as remarked elsewhere in this thread, women generally feel much more physically threatened by men than vice versa, so are much more likely to want to call the police in an extremely uncomfortable situation.
From
Women, as a rule, are themselves “naturals” in this sense, which results in them thinking that any “normal” guy ought to know what to do.
Which is ridiculous. [EDIT: I mean ridiculous in the sense of being stupid, not in being wrong. It certainly could be valid, which would be unfortunate but not the stupidest thing that’s true for humans by a long shot]
I think that straight women generally do have higher standards for how socially skilled men are than straight men hold for women. I just don’t think that this condition is caused by women being more socially savvy than men. It’s also really hard to measure, because social skill means different things for men in women following traditional gender roles.
I think that straight women generally do have higher standards for how socially skilled men are than straight men hold for women. I just don’t think that this condition is caused by women being more socially savvy than men.
Perhaps the assumption that wasn’t explicit enough in the way I said it, is that women are more socially savvy at relating to women than men are. (The term “natural” in PUA lingo more specifically refers to “naturally good at meeting/relating to women”.)
It’s pretty straightforward, though, how this leads to the PUA meme that “women are more socially savvy”, when a more precise claim would be to say that “women are generally more sensitive to the social nuances of men’s behavior than are the men performing those behaviors.” The latter is the point the PUAs are trying to teach, namely that men need to learn to be able to see their own behavior from someone else’s point of view.
(That the typical model for “someone else” used in such trainings is often “women of above-average physical attractiveness in bars and nightclubs” is a separate issue, which has spawned other debates here in the past!)
In general, problems occur when fairly narrowly-focused PUA concepts are interpreted without the aid of the background assumptions underlying them. Unfortunately, it’s usually difficult for human beings to identify their background assumptions, because, well, they’re in the background, not to mention being assumptions. ;-)
Are you seriously suggesting that women are naturally good at social games and grace, but that men are not? And moreover that despite apparently being better at social intuition, they fail to understand that men aren’t?
This thread is getting increasingly hostile, but none of it seems to be flamebait—apparently many LWers have genuinely warped perceptions about gender.
I don’t suggest that women fail to understand that individual men aren’t good at social perception or intuition (as you imply, that would indeed be contradictory); I’m merely suggesting that women are prone to perceiving this failure as meaning the men in question are broken (i.e. not “real” men).
The default tendency is for people to assume that people unlike themselves are defective; it is an uncommon person who can look at a typical person of the opposite sex and not see an apparently-broken person of their own sex.
(Presumably, this is because our mental machinery for predicting others’ behavior relies far too heavily on our own habits, experiences, ways of thinking, etc.)
Fixed that for you.
This bears repeating.
And read this, too.
I’ve been thinking about that. I’m not sure what the solution is. Thinking that other’s behaviour is unlike our own is very unhelpful, because it doesn’t say which bits are unlike our own.
Also people tend to form groups of people like themselves, so there is less data to gather naturally. I’m also not sure fiction helps either, it tends to be unrealistic.
Well, when you get much of your information about gender from online discussions which are totally dominated by your own sex, of course you develop some weird ideas.
Just for laughs, and perhaps a bit of consciousness-raising, I would like to lurk a bit at a female-dominated forum which discusses gender politics, inter-gender communication, and perhaps the female variant of PUA (a la Cosmo magazine, but non commercial). Someplace halfway intelligent. Anyone have any suggestions?
Jezebel for the lighter side, Feministe or Pandagon for heavy politics.
Never found them that rational, unfortunately.
There’s also Feministing… the level of discussion isn’t close to LW level, but it’s not terrible.
Let me put it this way: there are far more creepy men than there are creepy women. And there are more autistic men than autistic women. I strongly suspect that women are less likely to fail as badly in social situations as some men sometimes do. And I don’t mean ordinary social failure, I mean “Go away or I’m calling the police” level of social failure.
Not that they don’t understand, just that individual women tend to judge men harshly for not living up to the standards that they set.
This thread is generating an interesting collective definition of creepy. I don’t think I disagree with it, but it’s most interesting to me because it seems to not fit any of the concise definitions that have appeared.
I think it’s a big jump from
to
I guess I think of those as being different enough to not fall on the same spectrum. To me, someone who is not good at the social graces is still very far away from someone upon whom the police could reasonably be called. Also, as remarked elsewhere in this thread, women generally feel much more physically threatened by men than vice versa, so are much more likely to want to call the police in an extremely uncomfortable situation.
From
I pulled out
Which is ridiculous. [EDIT: I mean ridiculous in the sense of being stupid, not in being wrong. It certainly could be valid, which would be unfortunate but not the stupidest thing that’s true for humans by a long shot]
I think that straight women generally do have higher standards for how socially skilled men are than straight men hold for women. I just don’t think that this condition is caused by women being more socially savvy than men. It’s also really hard to measure, because social skill means different things for men in women following traditional gender roles.
Perhaps the assumption that wasn’t explicit enough in the way I said it, is that women are more socially savvy at relating to women than men are. (The term “natural” in PUA lingo more specifically refers to “naturally good at meeting/relating to women”.)
It’s pretty straightforward, though, how this leads to the PUA meme that “women are more socially savvy”, when a more precise claim would be to say that “women are generally more sensitive to the social nuances of men’s behavior than are the men performing those behaviors.” The latter is the point the PUAs are trying to teach, namely that men need to learn to be able to see their own behavior from someone else’s point of view.
(That the typical model for “someone else” used in such trainings is often “women of above-average physical attractiveness in bars and nightclubs” is a separate issue, which has spawned other debates here in the past!)
In general, problems occur when fairly narrowly-focused PUA concepts are interpreted without the aid of the background assumptions underlying them. Unfortunately, it’s usually difficult for human beings to identify their background assumptions, because, well, they’re in the background, not to mention being assumptions. ;-)
Good point.
Indeed it is. I think the implication was supposed to be “Women will conclude that many men aren’t normal, when in fact they are”.
Indeed it is. I think the implication was supposed to be “Women will conclude that many men aren’t normal, when in fact they are”.