A sidetrack: I think men’s physical strength is a minor factor compared to their ability to organize for violence. If the organizational ability were reversed—if men who seriously displeased women were mobbed by 4 or 5 armed and organized women and didn’t have male back-up, the world would be very different.
This doesn’t mean I want that world, but I find it interesting that males seem to almost reflexively organize for violence, and females pretty much never do. Information about girl gangs appreciated if I’m missing something.
“Niceness training” has some real problems—it’s being afraid to express strong desires which might be in conflict with other people’s.
Kindness training—encouraging people to actually treat each other well and having some skills for doing so—would be a whole different thing, and a world where it was common is hard for me to imagine. It would be a world with little or no status enforcement.
As someone who taught women’s self defense courses for years (and am an accomplished martial artist in my own right), I think the willingness to use force—and the expectation that others are willing to use force—is far more important than the effectiveness or quantity of that force.
I don’t mean that skilled martial artists can defend themselves against unskilled but much stronger attackers; people usually assume this, and I agree. What I mean is that after spending a weekend teaching a woman to fight back against a physical assault she knows almost nothing more than she did before, but has the confidence in herself to use force, and that willingness makes all the difference.
Men are statistically more willing to use force to get what they want, and being aware of that, women are forced to be more cautious. I feel like this ought to be more relevant than men being more prone to organizing for violence, especially in the current day western world.
Kindness training—encouraging people to actually treat each other well and having some skills for doing so
Interestingly, this is more of a negative skill: people don’t so much need to learn how to be nice as how to stop being not-nice, especially to themselves. I’ve observed that whenever I stop judging myself negatively in some type of situation, I find myself spontaneously being much nicer to other people in the same sort of situation.
For example, after learning not to judge myself for having made a mistake, I find I’m nicer to people who’ve made mistakes. Previously, I had tried to “learn” the “skill” of being kind to people when they make a mistake, and had failed miserably at it. Assuming I remembered I was supposed to do it, it felt awkward and unnatural and my mixed feelings were probably quite transparent, even though I sincerely wanted to be nice.
Now, there are a wide variety of situations in which my natural inclination is just to be kind, nice, playful, or any of various other attributes, and I didn’t need to learn any specific skills—just getting rid of the emotional judgments I’d attached to specific situational or behavioral patterns.
A sidetrack: I think men’s physical strength is a minor factor compared to their ability to organize for violence. If the organizational ability were reversed—if men who seriously displeased women were mobbed by 4 or 5 armed and organized women and didn’t have male back-up, the world would be very different.
I’m honestly baffled by what you might have in mind here. These days, in most of the First World, and especially the Anglosphere, there is virtually no organized violence except for the government security forces and the organized crime that’s rampant among the underclass. Even the most rudimentary forms of it that were once extremely common are nowadays rare to nonexistent, and for non-underclass men it’s a completely alien concept. (When was the last time you read about a mass bar fight, or some impromptu vigilante action against street criminals in your corner of the world?)
What would be, according to you, the situations where men’s aptness for organized violence is relevant for the relations between the sexes in the contemporary West?
Ancestral environment, mostly. Other than that, I’ll need to think about whether I just got entranced by an interesting theoretical riff, or actually had something worthwhile in mind.
This isn’t the West, but it is contemporary: Iran is infamous for stoning women for mere adultery This seems like a clear instance of a mob organized for lethal violence. The disparity in sentencing between men and women cited in the linked article also make it relevant to relations between the sexes. (One thing that I don’t know is what the gender composition of the killers at a stoning typically is.)
Why would organizing for violence matter more than physical attributes?
(I don’t know whether men or women are better at shooting. I’ve heard anecdotally that women are better first-time learners with guns, because they’re more conscientious—less horseplay and arrogance. But it would also make sense if men were better because of 3-d spatial skills. I’ll be testing it out later this week when I learn to shoot; if anybody knows data on this I’d be curious.)
From what I’ve heard, people are generally not good at fighting off four or five opponents. Also, the ancestral environment doesn’t include martial arts. And everybody’s got to sleep sometime.
My own limited personal experience with firearms is that women have more difficulty because they seem to be more scared of them.
An accurate shot requires a smooth trigger pull, which requires not anticipating when during that pull the gun will go off—anticipation causes tension, causes the gun to move off target.
The first shot someone makes with a gun (ever) is often not too bad; the noise and force against their hand scares them, and then they have to learn to stay calm while pulling the trigger. This seems to be somewhat easier for the men I’ve taught to shoot than the women, though individual differences are greater than group differences. I’m not a firearms instructor by the way; I’ve been involved in teaching less than a dozen people to shoot, only three of them women.
A sidetrack: I think men’s physical strength is a minor factor compared to their ability to organize for violence. If the organizational ability were reversed—if men who seriously displeased women were mobbed by 4 or 5 armed and organized women and didn’t have male back-up, the world would be very different.
This doesn’t mean I want that world, but I find it interesting that males seem to almost reflexively organize for violence, and females pretty much never do. Information about girl gangs appreciated if I’m missing something.
“Niceness training” has some real problems—it’s being afraid to express strong desires which might be in conflict with other people’s.
Kindness training—encouraging people to actually treat each other well and having some skills for doing so—would be a whole different thing, and a world where it was common is hard for me to imagine. It would be a world with little or no status enforcement.
As someone who taught women’s self defense courses for years (and am an accomplished martial artist in my own right), I think the willingness to use force—and the expectation that others are willing to use force—is far more important than the effectiveness or quantity of that force.
I don’t mean that skilled martial artists can defend themselves against unskilled but much stronger attackers; people usually assume this, and I agree. What I mean is that after spending a weekend teaching a woman to fight back against a physical assault she knows almost nothing more than she did before, but has the confidence in herself to use force, and that willingness makes all the difference.
Men are statistically more willing to use force to get what they want, and being aware of that, women are forced to be more cautious. I feel like this ought to be more relevant than men being more prone to organizing for violence, especially in the current day western world.
Interestingly, this is more of a negative skill: people don’t so much need to learn how to be nice as how to stop being not-nice, especially to themselves. I’ve observed that whenever I stop judging myself negatively in some type of situation, I find myself spontaneously being much nicer to other people in the same sort of situation.
For example, after learning not to judge myself for having made a mistake, I find I’m nicer to people who’ve made mistakes. Previously, I had tried to “learn” the “skill” of being kind to people when they make a mistake, and had failed miserably at it. Assuming I remembered I was supposed to do it, it felt awkward and unnatural and my mixed feelings were probably quite transparent, even though I sincerely wanted to be nice.
Now, there are a wide variety of situations in which my natural inclination is just to be kind, nice, playful, or any of various other attributes, and I didn’t need to learn any specific skills—just getting rid of the emotional judgments I’d attached to specific situational or behavioral patterns.
NancyLebovitz:
I’m honestly baffled by what you might have in mind here. These days, in most of the First World, and especially the Anglosphere, there is virtually no organized violence except for the government security forces and the organized crime that’s rampant among the underclass. Even the most rudimentary forms of it that were once extremely common are nowadays rare to nonexistent, and for non-underclass men it’s a completely alien concept. (When was the last time you read about a mass bar fight, or some impromptu vigilante action against street criminals in your corner of the world?)
What would be, according to you, the situations where men’s aptness for organized violence is relevant for the relations between the sexes in the contemporary West?
Ancestral environment, mostly. Other than that, I’ll need to think about whether I just got entranced by an interesting theoretical riff, or actually had something worthwhile in mind.
This isn’t the West, but it is contemporary: Iran is infamous for stoning women for mere adultery This seems like a clear instance of a mob organized for lethal violence. The disparity in sentencing between men and women cited in the linked article also make it relevant to relations between the sexes. (One thing that I don’t know is what the gender composition of the killers at a stoning typically is.)
I don’t read about them (bar fights aren’t newsworthy), but they’re hardly unheard-of hereabouts.
I believe the relevant violence is by street-criminals, and they’re all over the place.
“Underclass”? And how, pray tell, does one recognize such a person? Hat color?
More or less.
Why would organizing for violence matter more than physical attributes?
(I don’t know whether men or women are better at shooting. I’ve heard anecdotally that women are better first-time learners with guns, because they’re more conscientious—less horseplay and arrogance. But it would also make sense if men were better because of 3-d spatial skills. I’ll be testing it out later this week when I learn to shoot; if anybody knows data on this I’d be curious.)
From what I’ve heard, people are generally not good at fighting off four or five opponents. Also, the ancestral environment doesn’t include martial arts. And everybody’s got to sleep sometime.
My own limited personal experience with firearms is that women have more difficulty because they seem to be more scared of them.
An accurate shot requires a smooth trigger pull, which requires not anticipating when during that pull the gun will go off—anticipation causes tension, causes the gun to move off target.
The first shot someone makes with a gun (ever) is often not too bad; the noise and force against their hand scares them, and then they have to learn to stay calm while pulling the trigger. This seems to be somewhat easier for the men I’ve taught to shoot than the women, though individual differences are greater than group differences. I’m not a firearms instructor by the way; I’ve been involved in teaching less than a dozen people to shoot, only three of them women.