I agree that this sentence of komponisto’s is where things blew up.
I wonder if it’s time someone made the bound-to-be-controversial suggestion that women in modern society are excessively conservative when it comes to granting sexual favors.
Too conservative for who? Who gains under the new system? He frames it as women “granting sexual favors”, not, for example, as women having more fun or a larger selection of potential mates or anything else they might want. I think that’s where the entitlement issues showed up.
I think everyone would be better off if men were less picky about women’s appearances. If you optimize for that one thing, it’s harder to optimize for anything else, including various sorts of compatibility.
However, I think it would be rude to push that point of view—it seems so clear that men want what they want, and generally don’t want to want to be different. (I think there was someone here who did want to want to have broader tastes in women, but couldn’t manage it.)
There might be some binary thinking going on—“should be less conservative about granting sexual favors” may be apt to trigger memories of the least attractive men who wanted them rather than the men who just barely didn’t make the cut. “Granting sexual favors” does suggest a high-to-low status situation.
When I suggested men being less picky about women’s appearance, did that seem to imply being attracted to somewhat less currently physically attractive women, or being attracted to women you currently find physically very unattractive?
More komponisto:
The question is, what to do about this problem of their not wanting, since their lack of wanting causes pain for others.
What is to be done by who? Why should they care? And, for that matter, how much work would it take for women to adjust their desires, and by what means?
I don’t know if I should be blaming anyone for not getting this aspect of things since it’s taken me this long to drag it into consciousness, but I think this is why the creep-o-meter and physical danger alarms are going off.
In a previous discussion, someone was making a utilitarian calculation which seemed to ignore women’s interests—and when I asked him about it, it turned out that he had. I didn’t underline it at the time, but it’s really unnerving to be that much of a blank spot.
I think everyone would be better off if men were less picky about women’s appearances. If you optimize for that one thing, it’s harder to optimize for anything else, including various sorts of compatibility.
Very true.
However, I think it would be rude to push that point of view—it seems so clear that men want what they want, and generally don’t want to want to be different.
It would be interesting if this were something that was subject to chemical modification. It doesn’t seem like the sort of thing one could verbally persuade a man about—but if there was something that reduced pickiness with say the same side effect profile that caffeine has towards increasing alertness I think it would be a good addition to our culture.
It might be possible to verbally persuade some men that this was worth working on—but it might also take considerable work just to find usable methods.
I’ve read one account of a man who found that pornography was giving him irrational standards about what women ought to look like and do, and that staying away from pornography for a while (months?) recalibrated his standards towards actual women.
For a science fictional look at the possible effects of not being able to see facial beauty, see Ted Chiang’s “Liking What You See: A Documentary”.
But for sure if he abstained from pornography, he was also reducing his masturbation, and therefore more biologically driven to have sexual desire for the women actually available to him in reality.
I do agree that porn is a visual superstimulus and at least momentarily distorting.
but if there was something that reduced pickiness with say the same side effect profile that caffeine has towards increasing alertness I think it would be a good addition to our culture.
I agree that this sentence of komponisto’s is where things blew up.
Too conservative for who? Who gains under the new system? He frames it as women “granting sexual favors”, not, for example, as women having more fun or a larger selection of potential mates or anything else they might want. I think that’s where the entitlement issues showed up.
I think everyone would be better off if men were less picky about women’s appearances. If you optimize for that one thing, it’s harder to optimize for anything else, including various sorts of compatibility.
However, I think it would be rude to push that point of view—it seems so clear that men want what they want, and generally don’t want to want to be different. (I think there was someone here who did want to want to have broader tastes in women, but couldn’t manage it.)
There might be some binary thinking going on—“should be less conservative about granting sexual favors” may be apt to trigger memories of the least attractive men who wanted them rather than the men who just barely didn’t make the cut. “Granting sexual favors” does suggest a high-to-low status situation.
When I suggested men being less picky about women’s appearance, did that seem to imply being attracted to somewhat less currently physically attractive women, or being attracted to women you currently find physically very unattractive?
More komponisto:
What is to be done by who? Why should they care? And, for that matter, how much work would it take for women to adjust their desires, and by what means?
I don’t know if I should be blaming anyone for not getting this aspect of things since it’s taken me this long to drag it into consciousness, but I think this is why the creep-o-meter and physical danger alarms are going off.
In a previous discussion, someone was making a utilitarian calculation which seemed to ignore women’s interests—and when I asked him about it, it turned out that he had. I didn’t underline it at the time, but it’s really unnerving to be that much of a blank spot.
Very true.
It would be interesting if this were something that was subject to chemical modification. It doesn’t seem like the sort of thing one could verbally persuade a man about—but if there was something that reduced pickiness with say the same side effect profile that caffeine has towards increasing alertness I think it would be a good addition to our culture.
It might be possible to verbally persuade some men that this was worth working on—but it might also take considerable work just to find usable methods.
I’ve read one account of a man who found that pornography was giving him irrational standards about what women ought to look like and do, and that staying away from pornography for a while (months?) recalibrated his standards towards actual women.
For a science fictional look at the possible effects of not being able to see facial beauty, see Ted Chiang’s “Liking What You See: A Documentary”.
But for sure if he abstained from pornography, he was also reducing his masturbation, and therefore more biologically driven to have sexual desire for the women actually available to him in reality.
I do agree that porn is a visual superstimulus and at least momentarily distorting.
Don’t we call this substance ‘beer’?