Quality of life. The idea is that without the ravages of modernity, technological advancement would have created an even higher quality of life.
By way of example, consider the 1950s. Their technology was obviously inferior to ours. And yet they had intact families (marriage rates were higher, divorce and bastardy rates lower) and well-paying jobs (a husband’s salary alone sufficed to support his entire family, his wife was free to cook and clean and raise the children). Is our quality of life higher than theirs? It’s not obvious to me. Even if it is, why is this trade-off necessary? Why can’t we have the superior scientific technology of the 2010s and the superior social technology of the 1950s?
marriage rates were higher, divorce and bastardy rates lower
That’s only desirable if there’s strong social pressure in favor of some family models over others. Tolerance of diverse family structures has made marriage less relevant for economic well-being.
wife was free to cook and clean and raise the children
marriage rates were higher, divorce and bastardy rates lower
That’s only desirable if there’s strong social pressure in favor of some family models over others. Tolerance of diverse family structures has made marriage less relevant for economic well-being.
No, that may also be desirable if some family models are more conducive to human happiness and flourishing than others.
a husband’s salary alone sufficed to support his entire family
A 2010s husband’s salary alone would also suffice to support his entire family if they were willing to live according to 1950s standards. See e.g. Mr. Money Moustache.
I do read MMM, and ERE, and other frugality blogsphere titles. I disagree with your characterization that the difficulty in achieving a decent life today merely reflects an inflation of what is considered decent. First, because it’s much harder to get the same kind of job in 2010s that would have been available in the 1950s; a solid, respectable job you easily can get out of high school is not the same as a solid, respectable job you might not even get after wasting a minimum of four years and going thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into debt. That this latter condition holds in modern times can be attributed to academic inflation and increased job competition from immigration and from women entering the workforce, which are all progressive policies. Second, because zero-sum competition for safe housing away from city centers has increased their prices to reflect what a two-income household can barely cover (and, indeed, the increased prices is part of what keeps them safe), not to mention the horrors of commuting (distance from city centers being the other thing that keeps them safe).
Just to be clear, when you say that it’s much harder to get such a job, and that this is due in part to increased competition from immigration and women, what you mean to say is that it’s much harder for non-women and non-immigrants to get such a job, because it’s correspondingly easier for immigrants and women to get them. Yes?
You seem to additionally be implying that how hard it is for women and immigrants to get jobs isn’t a relevant factor in determining the difficulty in achieving a decent life. Yes?
I have no intention of arguing against either of those points here, I just want to make sure I’ve understood you correctly.
Just to be clear, when you say that it’s much harder to get such a job, and that this is due in part to increased competition from immigration and women, what you mean to say is that it’s much harder for non-women and non-immigrants to get such a job, because it’s correspondingly easier for immigrants and women to get them. Yes?
Yes. I am aware of the lump of labor fallacy, and that in theory an increasing number of workers might have economic effects creating more jobs even as said workers take existing ones, ending up with a similar or perhaps even a better job market than existed before the new workers came into the picture. But in practice it seems like workers have increased faster than jobs, and the oversupply of labor has led lower wages, lower non-monetary compensation, and/or lack of jobs.
You seem to additionally be implying that how hard it is for women and immigrants to get jobs isn’t a relevant factor in determining the difficulty in achieving a decent life. Yes?
Let’s start with women. If you think of the family as the basic block of society instead of the atomized individual, then yes. Under the old model, it was understood that women would marry early (men slightly less early), and that their husbands would be financially responsible for the resulting household and children. If there is a strong job market for men under this model, then most women do not need to work; only the very poor, the widows, the spinsters, and other extreme cases. Instead of slaving away 40 hours per week at work like their husbands did, wives were free to slave away cooking and cleaning and raising the children, which is still slavery, but is a much kinder form of slavery, with a more caring master. Under the new model and circumstances, both men and women perform the wage kind of slavery, and either they perform the household kind of slavery on top of that, or they outsource it, with negative consequences all around.
Immigrants are a different matter. Utilitarians can make a good case that immigration increased total utility, improving the immigrants’ quality of life more than it lowered existing citizens’. If you’re one of those guys who thinks we should all be sending all of our spare income to Africa, or whatever percentage of our income is realistically psychologically sustainable, I guess this is pretty great, and it’s also great if you are one of the immigrants waiting to get in, but it’s not so great for existing citizens whose quality of life is being brought to equilibrium with the rest of the world’s, or for the immigrants already here.
Home appliances cut down quite a bit on “household slavery”. And while you might argue that home-based work is preferable to market work due to having a “kinder, more caring master”, the swift demise of cottage industry once early factories became feasible suggests that folks care more about how productive they are than whether they can work from home.
And while you might argue that home-based work is preferable to market work due to having a “kinder, more caring master”, the swift demise of cottage industry once early factories became feasible suggests that folks care more about how productive they are than whether they can work from home.
The folks who were actually around at the time seemed to disagree about that. Plenty of people devised plans for utopian communities where Moloch wouldn’t be a factor, but they cared little for household-based work. (Indeed, some of them assumed that you could get rid of households altogether, and just live in large, factory-like collective arrangements under the supervision of some ‘uncaring’ leader. Of course, modern evo-psych and social anthropology argue against that view.)
OK; thanks for clarifying. Like I said, I have no intention of arguing those points (though I probably ought to say explicitly I don’t find your arguments convincing), I just wanted to confirm that I was interpreting you correctly.
Those marriage rates masked quite a lot of marital misery, and… well, frankly, neoreactionaries just have no right to use the economic structure of the ’50s Western long boom as evidence for their ideas. Those jobs were based on the strong-labor, employment-state, and financial repression policies of the post-war governments—everything reactionaries hate.
Quality of life. The idea is that without the ravages of modernity, technological advancement would have created an even higher quality of life.
By way of example, consider the 1950s. Their technology was obviously inferior to ours. And yet they had intact families (marriage rates were higher, divorce and bastardy rates lower) and well-paying jobs (a husband’s salary alone sufficed to support his entire family, his wife was free to cook and clean and raise the children). Is our quality of life higher than theirs? It’s not obvious to me. Even if it is, why is this trade-off necessary? Why can’t we have the superior scientific technology of the 2010s and the superior social technology of the 1950s?
That’s only desirable if there’s strong social pressure in favor of some family models over others. Tolerance of diverse family structures has made marriage less relevant for economic well-being.
Your idea of freedom is… curious.
No, that may also be desirable if some family models are more conducive to human happiness and flourishing than others.
That’s a valid argument only if this is so biologically. If it’s so merely culturally, cultures change.
A 2010s husband’s salary alone would also suffice to support his entire family if they were willing to live according to 1950s standards. See e.g. Mr. Money Moustache.
I do read MMM, and ERE, and other frugality blogsphere titles. I disagree with your characterization that the difficulty in achieving a decent life today merely reflects an inflation of what is considered decent. First, because it’s much harder to get the same kind of job in 2010s that would have been available in the 1950s; a solid, respectable job you easily can get out of high school is not the same as a solid, respectable job you might not even get after wasting a minimum of four years and going thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into debt. That this latter condition holds in modern times can be attributed to academic inflation and increased job competition from immigration and from women entering the workforce, which are all progressive policies. Second, because zero-sum competition for safe housing away from city centers has increased their prices to reflect what a two-income household can barely cover (and, indeed, the increased prices is part of what keeps them safe), not to mention the horrors of commuting (distance from city centers being the other thing that keeps them safe).
Just to be clear, when you say that it’s much harder to get such a job, and that this is due in part to increased competition from immigration and women, what you mean to say is that it’s much harder for non-women and non-immigrants to get such a job, because it’s correspondingly easier for immigrants and women to get them. Yes?
You seem to additionally be implying that how hard it is for women and immigrants to get jobs isn’t a relevant factor in determining the difficulty in achieving a decent life. Yes?
I have no intention of arguing against either of those points here, I just want to make sure I’ve understood you correctly.
Yes. I am aware of the lump of labor fallacy, and that in theory an increasing number of workers might have economic effects creating more jobs even as said workers take existing ones, ending up with a similar or perhaps even a better job market than existed before the new workers came into the picture. But in practice it seems like workers have increased faster than jobs, and the oversupply of labor has led lower wages, lower non-monetary compensation, and/or lack of jobs.
Let’s start with women. If you think of the family as the basic block of society instead of the atomized individual, then yes. Under the old model, it was understood that women would marry early (men slightly less early), and that their husbands would be financially responsible for the resulting household and children. If there is a strong job market for men under this model, then most women do not need to work; only the very poor, the widows, the spinsters, and other extreme cases. Instead of slaving away 40 hours per week at work like their husbands did, wives were free to slave away cooking and cleaning and raising the children, which is still slavery, but is a much kinder form of slavery, with a more caring master. Under the new model and circumstances, both men and women perform the wage kind of slavery, and either they perform the household kind of slavery on top of that, or they outsource it, with negative consequences all around.
Immigrants are a different matter. Utilitarians can make a good case that immigration increased total utility, improving the immigrants’ quality of life more than it lowered existing citizens’. If you’re one of those guys who thinks we should all be sending all of our spare income to Africa, or whatever percentage of our income is realistically psychologically sustainable, I guess this is pretty great, and it’s also great if you are one of the immigrants waiting to get in, but it’s not so great for existing citizens whose quality of life is being brought to equilibrium with the rest of the world’s, or for the immigrants already here.
Home appliances cut down quite a bit on “household slavery”. And while you might argue that home-based work is preferable to market work due to having a “kinder, more caring master”, the swift demise of cottage industry once early factories became feasible suggests that folks care more about how productive they are than whether they can work from home.
I think that was just Moloch.
The folks who were actually around at the time seemed to disagree about that. Plenty of people devised plans for utopian communities where Moloch wouldn’t be a factor, but they cared little for household-based work. (Indeed, some of them assumed that you could get rid of households altogether, and just live in large, factory-like collective arrangements under the supervision of some ‘uncaring’ leader. Of course, modern evo-psych and social anthropology argue against that view.)
OK; thanks for clarifying. Like I said, I have no intention of arguing those points (though I probably ought to say explicitly I don’t find your arguments convincing), I just wanted to confirm that I was interpreting you correctly.
Which is generally illegal.
Those marriage rates masked quite a lot of marital misery, and… well, frankly, neoreactionaries just have no right to use the economic structure of the ’50s Western long boom as evidence for their ideas. Those jobs were based on the strong-labor, employment-state, and financial repression policies of the post-war governments—everything reactionaries hate.
Moldbug has actually talked positively about protectionist, make-work government policies.