I think a rational story in which the protagonist uses CBT from The Feeling Good Handbook to become happy and end his depression, would be a good project.
I don’t think it’s an easy project but there a possibility for high impact. In case anybody feels the call for writing that story and wants help with getting the narrative right, I would be happy to do it as a joint project or just advice.
It should incorporate elements described by religious mysticism, stuff like Love, Joy, Strength, Peace, Trust, etc. It should position itself to the current effort to find common ground… like the Charter for Compassion. It should be about a long journey of discovering the power of love.
The problem is that a lot of the people in this community don’t like the idea of emotions let alone deep ones like love. This community would have to shift quite a bit.
Dave Chapman’s article going down on the phenomenon illustrates an ideal of love for science that I consider worthy of being spread.
Getting the narrative right to make that ideal of love is acceptable to the average LW person is a hard task.
“Rational” is not a word that correspond to something that commonly considered an emotion.
You can feel love, you can feel anger but you can’t really feel rational in the same sense. You do endorse the idea of feeling but the fact that you speak about feeling something that’s no emotion illustrates the core issue.
There a lot of talk about utility functions that people supposedly use and Bayesian calculations, when in reality humans usually make decisions based on emotions.
When challenged by Dave Chapman that maybe Bayesianism isn’t the one true solution, few of the senior LW people that responded to him even got what he meant. I highlite the “going down on the phenomenon”-post because it’s what Chapman wrote at the end after his critique of Bayesianism.
On a superficial level quite a few people admit that emotions are important but they don’t take them seriously. LW as it currently exists is no place that radiates love and peace.
There are cool people at meetups but on the level of what story LW tells at the moment there’s no love and peace. Certainly not enough love and peace to compete on that level with an established religion.
I was referring to the post Feeling Rational, which I’ve found the community to generally agree with. Rationality and emotions aren’t necessarily opposed, because emotions are often something that the truth can’t destroy.
Despite all my philosophy I am still embarrassed to confess strong emotions, and you’re probably uncomfortable hearing them.
That’s the core problem, on a philosophical level many agree that emotions are a good thing, but they still feel badly speaking about emotions.
You can reason perfectly well that emotions are okay and rationality and emotions aren’t opposed. That doesn’t mean that you like them. Of course recognizing that you feel bad about the concept of emotions requires you to notice what you feel.
But this is not a specific problem of rationalists.. It’s a broader problem with Western culture. Feeling strongly about things is not ‘cool’ or impressive. Plenty of people enjoy complaining, but passion makes you an alien.. perhaps an inspiring one, but ultimately an alien.. a person of whom people say ‘oh, I could never do that’, even if in the other breath they praise your passion and dedication.
I hesitate to assign a definite cause for that, but I am willing to comment that Western society somewhat deifies disaffected sociopathy, through its presentations in media, and also that I have a strong impression that most people have encountered enflamed evangelists, and they don’t want to be that person. Whether they recognize it as ugly or not, they treat it as ugly, though spectacular.
But this is not a specific problem of rationalists..
Sport fans do have strong feelings while watching basketball and that’s socially acceptable. As a result children want to go into the NFL instead of becoming scientists.
It’s a broader problem with Western culture. Feeling strongly about things is not ‘cool’ or impressive.
Yes. That means that if you manage to have community where having strong positive feeling is the norm, all sorts of people should have an interest into joining that community.
If you manage to succeed at that task you have a pretty big lever on your hand to produce large societal changes.
through its presentations in media, and also that I have a strong impression that most people have encountered enflamed evangelists
The problem with evangelism is that it’s usually targeted at outsiders. Instead it’s much better to target people who are receptive to your message and give them a narrative that allows them to feel more positive emotions by being part of your cause.
As your cause grows and people who are unhappy with their lives have a valid reason to come to your movement and believe your narrative to become happy. You don’t go to them and force your narrative on them but you let them come to you.
If a journalist comes and wants an interview and you have 2-3 free hours you gives them his interview but you don’t really need to go out and try to persuade outsiders. The most important work is getting the community itself right.
Love, as I view it is not something that can be easily defined. To me it’s a way of being into this world. This video describes it.
As for emotions… why would anyone dislike the joy of figuring things out? the post flow feeling of accomplishment? They are wired into our positive reinforcement system and as long as the thing they are reinforcing is a thing worth investing in, why not let nature run its course?
Love, as I view it is not something that can be easily defined.
That just means that you don’t have a well defined concept of the term you are speaking about. I would guess the same is true for most Lesswrongers for most emotions.
But as far as your link goes, I would predict that most people on LW won’t be receptive to that kind of talk. I would be very surprised to be proven wrong.
As for emotions… why would anyone dislike the joy of figuring things out? the post flow feeling of accomplishment?
If you want a fancy answer: Second-order cybernetics.
A simple answer would be because you can’t feel a strong emotion while wearing a mask. It requires you to give up control and get out of your head. I mean something specific with the phrase “get out of your head”, but I would guess that a good portion of LW don’t know exactly what I’m talking about and I know of no way to make it clear via this medium.
I could probably come up with a bunch of more reasons if I would invest time.
That just means that you don’t have a well defined concept of the term you are speaking about. I would guess the same is true for most Lesswrongers for most emotions.
Good point. It made me realise that I haven’t investigated this more seriously lately.
HPMOR is a good rational story.
I think a rational story in which the protagonist uses CBT from The Feeling Good Handbook to become happy and end his depression, would be a good project.
I don’t think it’s an easy project but there a possibility for high impact. In case anybody feels the call for writing that story and wants help with getting the narrative right, I would be happy to do it as a joint project or just advice.
The problem is that a lot of the people in this community don’t like the idea of emotions let alone deep ones like love. This community would have to shift quite a bit.
Dave Chapman’s article going down on the phenomenon illustrates an ideal of love for science that I consider worthy of being spread.
Getting the narrative right to make that ideal of love is acceptable to the average LW person is a hard task.
Feeling Rational seems to be endorsed more often than not, and straw Vulcans are often condemned.
“Rational” is not a word that correspond to something that commonly considered an emotion.
You can feel love, you can feel anger but you can’t really feel rational in the same sense. You do endorse the idea of feeling but the fact that you speak about feeling something that’s no emotion illustrates the core issue.
There a lot of talk about utility functions that people supposedly use and Bayesian calculations, when in reality humans usually make decisions based on emotions.
When challenged by Dave Chapman that maybe Bayesianism isn’t the one true solution, few of the senior LW people that responded to him even got what he meant. I highlite the “going down on the phenomenon”-post because it’s what Chapman wrote at the end after his critique of Bayesianism.
On a superficial level quite a few people admit that emotions are important but they don’t take them seriously. LW as it currently exists is no place that radiates love and peace.
There are cool people at meetups but on the level of what story LW tells at the moment there’s no love and peace. Certainly not enough love and peace to compete on that level with an established religion.
I was referring to the post Feeling Rational, which I’ve found the community to generally agree with. Rationality and emotions aren’t necessarily opposed, because emotions are often something that the truth can’t destroy.
I think the way the post ends is quite telling:
That’s the core problem, on a philosophical level many agree that emotions are a good thing, but they still feel badly speaking about emotions.
You can reason perfectly well that emotions are okay and rationality and emotions aren’t opposed. That doesn’t mean that you like them. Of course recognizing that you feel bad about the concept of emotions requires you to notice what you feel.
But this is not a specific problem of rationalists.. It’s a broader problem with Western culture. Feeling strongly about things is not ‘cool’ or impressive. Plenty of people enjoy complaining, but passion makes you an alien.. perhaps an inspiring one, but ultimately an alien.. a person of whom people say ‘oh, I could never do that’, even if in the other breath they praise your passion and dedication.
I hesitate to assign a definite cause for that, but I am willing to comment that Western society somewhat deifies disaffected sociopathy, through its presentations in media, and also that I have a strong impression that most people have encountered enflamed evangelists, and they don’t want to be that person. Whether they recognize it as ugly or not, they treat it as ugly, though spectacular.
Sport fans do have strong feelings while watching basketball and that’s socially acceptable. As a result children want to go into the NFL instead of becoming scientists.
Yes. That means that if you manage to have community where having strong positive feeling is the norm, all sorts of people should have an interest into joining that community. If you manage to succeed at that task you have a pretty big lever on your hand to produce large societal changes.
The problem with evangelism is that it’s usually targeted at outsiders. Instead it’s much better to target people who are receptive to your message and give them a narrative that allows them to feel more positive emotions by being part of your cause.
As your cause grows and people who are unhappy with their lives have a valid reason to come to your movement and believe your narrative to become happy. You don’t go to them and force your narrative on them but you let them come to you.
If a journalist comes and wants an interview and you have 2-3 free hours you gives them his interview but you don’t really need to go out and try to persuade outsiders. The most important work is getting the community itself right.
Well… it depends on what you point at.
Love, as I view it is not something that can be easily defined. To me it’s a way of being into this world. This video describes it.
As for emotions… why would anyone dislike the joy of figuring things out? the post flow feeling of accomplishment? They are wired into our positive reinforcement system and as long as the thing they are reinforcing is a thing worth investing in, why not let nature run its course?
That just means that you don’t have a well defined concept of the term you are speaking about. I would guess the same is true for most Lesswrongers for most emotions.
But as far as your link goes, I would predict that most people on LW won’t be receptive to that kind of talk. I would be very surprised to be proven wrong.
If you want a fancy answer: Second-order cybernetics.
A simple answer would be because you can’t feel a strong emotion while wearing a mask. It requires you to give up control and get out of your head. I mean something specific with the phrase “get out of your head”, but I would guess that a good portion of LW don’t know exactly what I’m talking about and I know of no way to make it clear via this medium.
I could probably come up with a bunch of more reasons if I would invest time.
Good point. It made me realise that I haven’t investigated this more seriously lately.
Feeling Rational seems to be endorsed more often than not, and straw Vulcans are often condemned.