I am somewhat afraid of the fact that convincing can be tought seperate from reasoned arguing, that not the best reason wins, but the most enthusiastic speaker, and the one who can best make his point in the eyes of the people.
Fear of a fact is not a good reason to ignore a fact.
… but I do not wish to persuade unreasoned.
A good argument, like a good novel, can work on several levels.
what makes an irrational argument convincing is human biases, but what I think lacks is more focused treatment of things like good writing or effective signaling, I haven’t read all of LW though so it might just be a simple task of collecting articles, but I don’t feel that’s the case, or is it?
I’m a bit uncomfortable with calling this a “dark art” (perhaps because teaching dark arts seems to be such a dangerous occupation). But there is a “rainbow art” consisting of equal parts of attention-grabbing and persuasion; an art which is necessary even if it is a good argument that you are trying to propagate. I would like to learn something about that art. Ideally, by means of an online class.
I can think of at least 5 different persuasion media that I would like to become skillful at.
Stand up lectures—like the TED lectures, for example
Powerpoint-style presentations with voiceovers.
Blog postings (and sequences of blog postings)
Publishable academic-style papers on technical topics.
Works of fiction with a didactic subtext—like HPMOR and Luminosity.
I’d bet lots of other people would like to become skillful at these things too.
I’d bet we have people here who are good enough at these things that they could lead a kind of online study group focused on learning and/or improving skills like these.
My track record with completing courses online and staying on task is terrible, whereas I’m fantastic about remembering to show up to things in person and I really learn well from experiencing things when physically present. If this were a class in Berkeley (relating back to the original point of this posting tangentially) I would definitely be there taking it.
Also, I like the term “rainbow art”, but rainbows are linked with the indelibly good in my mind. What about “grey arts”? Or just tools?
sounds like a good idea (though I’m not giving up on the Dark Arts class/sequence yet ..), given that OP does “encourage you to post your skills here anyway” I think bringing this up in the open thread or as a general call to candidates should be worthwhile, this can effectively and depending on the instructions make short work of most barriers to publishing an LW top level post, given relevant and interesting topics of course.
we have been experiencing a slump of late, I think this potentially helps in overcoming the slow stagnation that happens in all forums after the early ‘glory days’ are over.
Fear of a fact is not a good reason to ignore a fact.
A good argument, like a good novel, can work on several levels.
ok, so I’m considering that a discussion post at least should be made, any thoughts?
it could potentially be part of the sequences, although Eliezer and others do cover the Dark Arts I don’t recall a dedicated thread. I found some good examples from a quick googling, like Yvain’s Defense Against The Dark Arts: Case Study #1 or The Power of Positivist Thinking
what makes an irrational argument convincing is human biases, but what I think lacks is more focused treatment of things like good writing or effective signaling, I haven’t read all of LW though so it might just be a simple task of collecting articles, but I don’t feel that’s the case, or is it?
I’m a bit uncomfortable with calling this a “dark art” (perhaps because teaching dark arts seems to be such a dangerous occupation). But there is a “rainbow art” consisting of equal parts of attention-grabbing and persuasion; an art which is necessary even if it is a good argument that you are trying to propagate. I would like to learn something about that art. Ideally, by means of an online class.
I can think of at least 5 different persuasion media that I would like to become skillful at.
Stand up lectures—like the TED lectures, for example
Powerpoint-style presentations with voiceovers.
Blog postings (and sequences of blog postings)
Publishable academic-style papers on technical topics.
Works of fiction with a didactic subtext—like HPMOR and Luminosity.
I’d bet lots of other people would like to become skillful at these things too.
I’d bet we have people here who are good enough at these things that they could lead a kind of online study group focused on learning and/or improving skills like these.
My track record with completing courses online and staying on task is terrible, whereas I’m fantastic about remembering to show up to things in person and I really learn well from experiencing things when physically present. If this were a class in Berkeley (relating back to the original point of this posting tangentially) I would definitely be there taking it.
Also, I like the term “rainbow art”, but rainbows are linked with the indelibly good in my mind. What about “grey arts”? Or just tools?
sounds like a good idea (though I’m not giving up on the Dark Arts class/sequence yet ..), given that OP does “encourage you to post your skills here anyway” I think bringing this up in the open thread or as a general call to candidates should be worthwhile, this can effectively and depending on the instructions make short work of most barriers to publishing an LW top level post, given relevant and interesting topics of course.
we have been experiencing a slump of late, I think this potentially helps in overcoming the slow stagnation that happens in all forums after the early ‘glory days’ are over.