As an interesting intellectual challenge, try steelmanning some of the hareidi sociopolitical positions, such as their extreme opposition to the Israeli draft law. And it does need steelmanning—I personally know several very well-thought-out, very smart, very well-meaning, very knowledgeable rabbis who strongly agree with the hareidi positions.
I think that actually if you accept a certain basic worldview, they have a rather strong case. I strongly disagree with that worldview, but that’s a diffrent matter.
Let’s lay it out:
Axiom 1: Everything happens acording to God’s will.
Axiom 2: If we behave righeously, God’s will will be favourable.
Example: Again and again in the past, this has happened.
“בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם”
[Rough translation: “In each and every generation our foes have tried to destroy us, and each time the Holy One Blessed Be He saves us from them.]
Corollary 1: If we are righteous, we can expect this to carry on in the present and the future.
Axiom 3: The most righteous thing to be doing is to be studying the Holy Texts.
Lemma: We need to have as large a number of people as possible studing in yeshiva as their day-to-day occupation.
Proof of the lemma: Follows from Corollary 1 and Axiom 3.
Preposition: “Much as it pains us, we acknowledge that not everyone has it in them to spend all day studying Torah. We don’t want to force people who don’t want to study in yeshiva to do so (much as it aches the very bottoms of our souls), but at least you can let those who want to do so get on with it, and not waste their time on your secular ‘army’ nonsense, which has nothing to do with our defense, as our only true defense is God.”
Proof of the preposition: The lemma says that we need lots of yeshiva bochers, so let’s provide them! If you don’t have the proper כונה we cannot effectivly force you to study Torah (even if the hareidim had the political power), but at least we can take the masses of willing hareidi young men and allow the to do their job for the defense of our people, in order to protect what fragment of spiritual defense we still have.
Corollary 2: The state of Israel shouldn’t draft the yeshiva bochurs. Doing so removes our only true line of defense, and so is taramount to the genocide of the Jewish people.
If you accept the three axioms, it leads invariably to the Preposition, and so to Corollary 2.
That would work… but the Chareidim don’t actually believe in their defenses (they flee places getting bombed and leave the soldiers to defend people’s lives), nor are these defenses backed up in any way by halacha (they’re misinterpreted that one text they use as a source). Also, they don’t allow anyone in their community to go into the army. Ever. And they don’t let non-Chareidim join them in their learning for defense, either.
I suspect noonehomer’s correct in part and that the chareidim don’t actually believe everything that Username says.
Also, I don’t think it’s true they don’t let anyone go to the army (or at least it didn’t use to be), just that it’s discouraged.
If anyone’s interested in my own thoughts, I posted them in a comment here. Just look for the comment by iarwain. Sorry, you may need to understand some hebrew terms to understand it. But then again, you’ll need to understand hebrew terms to read Username’s comment as well.
the Chareidim don’t actually believe in their defenses
Yes.
What I wrote was a steelman of their positions, and must be taken as such. They themselves do not have such sophisticated mental models of the world. The answer to why they hate the IDF and the state of Israel is simply one of tribal affiliation. <>
[Edit: Also see point 3 in iarwain1′s linked comment. It explains the hareidi attitude to all this.]
I think that actually if you accept a certain basic worldview, they have a rather strong case. I strongly disagree with that worldview, but that’s a diffrent matter.
Let’s lay it out:
Axiom 1: Everything happens acording to God’s will.
Axiom 2: If we behave righeously, God’s will will be favourable.
Example: Again and again in the past, this has happened. “בכל דור ודור עומדים עלינו לכלותינו והקדוש ברוך הוא מצילנו מידם” [Rough translation: “In each and every generation our foes have tried to destroy us, and each time the Holy One Blessed Be He saves us from them.]
Corollary 1: If we are righteous, we can expect this to carry on in the present and the future.
Axiom 3: The most righteous thing to be doing is to be studying the Holy Texts.
Lemma: We need to have as large a number of people as possible studing in yeshiva as their day-to-day occupation.
Proof of the lemma: Follows from Corollary 1 and Axiom 3.
Preposition: “Much as it pains us, we acknowledge that not everyone has it in them to spend all day studying Torah. We don’t want to force people who don’t want to study in yeshiva to do so (much as it aches the very bottoms of our souls), but at least you can let those who want to do so get on with it, and not waste their time on your secular ‘army’ nonsense, which has nothing to do with our defense, as our only true defense is God.”
Proof of the preposition: The lemma says that we need lots of yeshiva bochers, so let’s provide them! If you don’t have the proper כונה we cannot effectivly force you to study Torah (even if the hareidim had the political power), but at least we can take the masses of willing hareidi young men and allow the to do their job for the defense of our people, in order to protect what fragment of spiritual defense we still have.
Corollary 2: The state of Israel shouldn’t draft the yeshiva bochurs. Doing so removes our only true line of defense, and so is taramount to the genocide of the Jewish people.
If you accept the three axioms, it leads invariably to the Preposition, and so to Corollary 2.
Q.E.D.
That would work… but the Chareidim don’t actually believe in their defenses (they flee places getting bombed and leave the soldiers to defend people’s lives), nor are these defenses backed up in any way by halacha (they’re misinterpreted that one text they use as a source). Also, they don’t allow anyone in their community to go into the army. Ever. And they don’t let non-Chareidim join them in their learning for defense, either.
I suspect noonehomer’s correct in part and that the chareidim don’t actually believe everything that Username says.
Also, I don’t think it’s true they don’t let anyone go to the army (or at least it didn’t use to be), just that it’s discouraged.
If anyone’s interested in my own thoughts, I posted them in a comment here. Just look for the comment by iarwain. Sorry, you may need to understand some hebrew terms to understand it. But then again, you’ll need to understand hebrew terms to read Username’s comment as well.
Yes.
What I wrote was a steelman of their positions, and must be taken as such. They themselves do not have such sophisticated mental models of the world. The answer to why they hate the IDF and the state of Israel is simply one of tribal affiliation. <>
[Edit: Also see point 3 in iarwain1′s linked comment. It explains the hareidi attitude to all this.]