Statements that are true, important to the development and practice of rationality, and lower a group’s status should be said. Persons stumbling upon information of this nature would benefit from doing their best to present the information in a way that will sting the least for this group’s status (post would be less controversial, would have to hear less distress calls). The more altruistic might consider how the community benefits from conscientiously proffered information.
A person who may have been offended despite all this will probably feel compelled to comment. I think it is important not to just be irritated at someone reacting this way, but to consider whether they have any valid point. Any time someone is offended by what we say, we may have an opportunity to learn how to prevent offense in the future (while still conveying the information accurately). In some cases, we might even learn we missed something and were wrong.
The only way something can be offensive enough to justify banning is if its author’s intended goal was to offend, rather than to seek truth. I don’t think that Lawrence Summers was trolling, and his remarks have a non-negligible chance of being true.
if its author’s intended goal was to offend, rather than to seek truth.
False dichotomy. People can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly in the course of making all kinds of statements; it doesn’t have to be either deliberate or a side feature of an attempt at seeking truth.
Indeed, people can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly. And yet, people can also be offensive while seeking truth. The offensive thing might not even be true, but to reach a conclusion either way, the offensive thing must be entertained as a hypothesis.
What if there was a hypothetical situation where the goal of seeking truth and the goal of not offending were at odds with each other such that one had to chose one or the other? Which goal is more important, truth seeking or non offense?
People have hinted that it depends on the situation. Pretend I’m an alien and and I know nothing of our society. How would you explain this to me? What algorithm is used to decide when it’s ok and when it’s not ok to offend? And on a related note, why is it ok to offend certain groups but not ok to offend other groups? Eg. It’s ok to offend religious people but not ok to offend …
You may offend people who do or believe foolish things, unless they meet the criteria for mental illness/retardation or you can avoid it without changing the substance of your claim.
Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need.
“You may offend people who do or believe foolish things”
How does one determine which acts and beliefs are foolish?
“Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need.”
What are these situations?
Who are the off limits people?
What is the greater need?
I’m not asking to annoy, I really want to know. I don’t get it. Please explain.
I don’t have an airtight definition handy, but it seems to me that (at least in the modern day in the developed world), religion is foolish, and (for instance) being a particular gender / race / etc. is not.
Hmmm. I can see a difference between religion and gender / race etc.
So is the rule: “It’s ok to offend a group if individuals have the option of belonging or not belonging to that group, but if individuals don’t have such a choice, then it’s not ok to offend them.”?
I don’t think that’s very helpful. It doesn’t seem to me that he as a very good grasp of what ‘heresy’ means, and you didn’t explain what you meant by it in context.
Did you mean:
What you’re doing is the modern-day equivalent to heresy (which I’d need explained)
What you’re suggesting is something that could serve the same purpose of accusations of ‘heresy’ in past days
something else
Note that for literal readings, the modern-day equivalent of ‘heresy’ is ‘heresy’. It still means the same thing and is used the same way by the Church.
That’s definitely not a way that I’ve heard ‘heresy’ used. From Wikipedia:
Heresy is an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.
In the Catholic tradition, heretics (people committing heresy) were condemned for leading people to believe that Catholicism is about something that it is not, and therefore putting their souls in danger.
Perhaps in the definition you gave above, you were referring to the attitude the Church had towards heresy, rather than heresy itself?
Also, your definition doesn’t fit what Alicorn suggested above. It might if you replace ‘idea’ with ‘utterance’ and understand ‘denounce’ to not mean ‘reject as false’.
It should definitely be allowed, but the poster should also expect many to react in disagreement.
Myself, I think anyone calling Summers sexist for his comments is incorrect. But I also think Summers is incorrect in his conclusion, that the biological difference between the sexes is not great enough to be a cause of the low enrollment discussed.
Maybe we should all play a game of rationalist taboo with the words “sexist”… and another game with the word “insensitive”...? It seems to me we all have different ideas about these and related concepts. Maybe this could be a helpful response to offenders and offendees in the future—whenever and whyever it pops up.
Statements that are true, important to the development and practice of rationality, and lower a group’s status should be said. Persons stumbling upon information of this nature would benefit from doing their best to present the information in a way that will sting the least for this group’s status (post would be less controversial, would have to hear less distress calls). The more altruistic might consider how the community benefits from conscientiously proffered information.
A person who may have been offended despite all this will probably feel compelled to comment. I think it is important not to just be irritated at someone reacting this way, but to consider whether they have any valid point. Any time someone is offended by what we say, we may have an opportunity to learn how to prevent offense in the future (while still conveying the information accurately). In some cases, we might even learn we missed something and were wrong.
I have another question: Would statements of the type made by Lawernce Summers* be considered too offensive for LW or is discussion allowed?
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers#Differences_between_the_sexes
The only way something can be offensive enough to justify banning is if its author’s intended goal was to offend, rather than to seek truth. I don’t think that Lawrence Summers was trolling, and his remarks have a non-negligible chance of being true.
False dichotomy. People can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly in the course of making all kinds of statements; it doesn’t have to be either deliberate or a side feature of an attempt at seeking truth.
Indeed, people can be offensive accidentally and/or ignorantly. And yet, people can also be offensive while seeking truth. The offensive thing might not even be true, but to reach a conclusion either way, the offensive thing must be entertained as a hypothesis.
What if there was a hypothetical situation where the goal of seeking truth and the goal of not offending were at odds with each other such that one had to chose one or the other? Which goal is more important, truth seeking or non offense?
People have hinted that it depends on the situation. Pretend I’m an alien and and I know nothing of our society. How would you explain this to me? What algorithm is used to decide when it’s ok and when it’s not ok to offend? And on a related note, why is it ok to offend certain groups but not ok to offend other groups? Eg. It’s ok to offend religious people but not ok to offend …
Do you want the real answer?
Humans don’t use algorithms for communication.
At the very least, they don’t use explicit ones.
You may offend people who do or believe foolish things, unless they meet the criteria for mental illness/retardation or you can avoid it without changing the substance of your claim.
Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need.
“You may offend people who do or believe foolish things” How does one determine which acts and beliefs are foolish?
“Of course, there are some situations where the need not to offend an off-limits person or group must take the backseat to some greater need.” What are these situations? Who are the off limits people? What is the greater need?
I’m not asking to annoy, I really want to know. I don’t get it. Please explain.
I don’t have an airtight definition handy, but it seems to me that (at least in the modern day in the developed world), religion is foolish, and (for instance) being a particular gender / race / etc. is not.
Hmmm. I can see a difference between religion and gender / race etc. So is the rule: “It’s ok to offend a group if individuals have the option of belonging or not belonging to that group, but if individuals don’t have such a choice, then it’s not ok to offend them.”?
That seems like an acceptable gloss of the distinction, although there are probably fine-grained intuitions it won’t cover.
I don’t like this rule. I don’t like rules that restrict truth seeking. I think this amounts to modern day heresy.
I don’t know what you mean by this. What’s ‘heresy’ outside of a religious context, and why should we care?
http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
I don’t think that’s very helpful. It doesn’t seem to me that he as a very good grasp of what ‘heresy’ means, and you didn’t explain what you meant by it in context.
Did you mean:
What you’re doing is the modern-day equivalent to heresy (which I’d need explained)
What you’re suggesting is something that could serve the same purpose of accusations of ‘heresy’ in past days
something else
Note that for literal readings, the modern-day equivalent of ‘heresy’ is ‘heresy’. It still means the same thing and is used the same way by the Church.
By heresy I mean preemptively denouncing an idea because it doesn’t adhere to some doctrine with no regard to whether the idea is true or false.
That’s definitely not a way that I’ve heard ‘heresy’ used. From Wikipedia:
In the Catholic tradition, heretics (people committing heresy) were condemned for leading people to believe that Catholicism is about something that it is not, and therefore putting their souls in danger.
Perhaps in the definition you gave above, you were referring to the attitude the Church had towards heresy, rather than heresy itself?
Also, your definition doesn’t fit what Alicorn suggested above. It might if you replace ‘idea’ with ‘utterance’ and understand ‘denounce’ to not mean ‘reject as false’.
It should definitely be allowed, but the poster should also expect many to react in disagreement.
Myself, I think anyone calling Summers sexist for his comments is incorrect. But I also think Summers is incorrect in his conclusion, that the biological difference between the sexes is not great enough to be a cause of the low enrollment discussed.
Maybe we should all play a game of rationalist taboo with the words “sexist”… and another game with the word “insensitive”...? It seems to me we all have different ideas about these and related concepts. Maybe this could be a helpful response to offenders and offendees in the future—whenever and whyever it pops up.