Does it not? Do we know of a better basis for decision theory? Please tell me what you know.
I have not seen a satisfactory way to compare utilities, and so believe that actually running a utilitarian calculation is an unsolved (and I would suspect unsolvable) problem.
When we are faced with having to punish someone, we want to get out of it. Punishing people sucks.
Why should someone with this view ever be given the position of judge? I would even be leery of entrusting a child to their care for an afternoon, let alone an upbringing.
(I assume that by “want to get out of it” you mean “expected negative total value” not “expected negative short-term value.” One who delights in punishment is a brute, but one who shirks from meting out just punishment is infirm.)
The question is whether we can avoid giving the punishment, and still credibly hold the threat of punishment against rational defectors.
The question is whether we can avoid giving the punishment, and still credibly hold the threat of punishment against rational defectors.
No. Next question.
Not nearly straightforward enough to use the “No. Next question.” move on. Deception and various forms of active manipulation are possible. They are rational, not omniscient.
Why should someone with this view ever be given the position of judge? I would even be leery of entrusting a child to their care for an afternoon, let alone an upbringing.
(I assume that by “want to get out of it” you mean “expected negative total value” not “expected negative short-term value.” One who delights in punishment is a brute, but one who shirks from meting out just punishment is infirm.)
Punishing people sucks the same way paying for stuff you take sucks, or working hard to achieve your goals sucks. You should be able to conceive of the fact that short term suck can pay for long term good. Pretending that punishment is good because it pays for good is stupid and you will get confused if you think like that.
A judge or parent who understands that punishment is bad is not necessarily going to not do it. They may also understand that following thru on punishment threats is necessary to keep the threat credible.
One who delights in punishment is a brute, but one who shirks from meting out just punishment is infirm.
Those words are loaded with connotation. Why are you using them? Say what is bad about punishing too much or too little without using words like that. You may find that too much punishment is bad because punishment is bad, and not enough punishment is bad because it fails to follow thru on the precommitment to punish that holds up the rule of law.
No. Next question.
Really? So theres no such thing as extenuating circumstances where we let someone off, but everyone understands that the threat of punishment is still there?
Maybe it was an accident, maybe punishing the weather won’t make it sunnier, maybe we should deal with the insane a little bit differently.
You should be able to conceive of the fact that short term suck can pay for long term good.
Yes, of course. Indeed, there are few long term goods that can be purchased without short term suck.
But you weren’t arguing that punishing criminals was a long term bad, or even insufficiently good. You were arguing that it was short term suck.
Those words are loaded with connotation. Why are you using them?
Invert the order of the sentences, and you have your answer. But I will answer at length:
The history and law and order is one of long and painful experience. The common law definition of “assault” did not spring forth from first principles, it was learned.
The source of order is deterrence; deterrence rests on expectations; expectations rest on identities. The brute is resisted in a way that the even-handed is not; the infirm are flaunted in a way that the firm are not.
So theres no such thing as extenuating circumstances where we let someone off, but everyone understands that the threat of punishment is still there?
Accepting any excuse reduces the credibility of the commitment. Sometimes you may think that reduction is acceptable, but you should never pretend it was absent.
But you weren’t arguing that punishing criminals was a long term bad, or even insufficiently good. You were arguing that it was short term suck.
Yes? Punishing criminals sucks, but it pays for the rule of law. I miss your point.
Invert the order of the sentences, and you have your answer. But I will answer at length:
still don’t get it
The source of order is deterrence;
agree
deterrence rests on expectations;
agree
expectations rest on identities. The brute is resisted in a way that the even-handed is not; the infirm are flaunted in a way that the firm are not.
wat? I don’t understand. What has identity got to do with anything? And too many loaded words. What does “even-handed” even mean, apart from “vaguely good and something to do with justice”?
Accepting any excuse reduces the credibility of the commitment. Sometimes you may think that reduction is acceptable, but you should never pretend it was absent.
Agreed. I thought you meant there weren’t cases that were worth it.
I have not seen a satisfactory way to compare utilities, and so believe that actually running a utilitarian calculation is an unsolved (and I would suspect unsolvable) problem.
Why should someone with this view ever be given the position of judge? I would even be leery of entrusting a child to their care for an afternoon, let alone an upbringing.
(I assume that by “want to get out of it” you mean “expected negative total value” not “expected negative short-term value.” One who delights in punishment is a brute, but one who shirks from meting out just punishment is infirm.)
No. Next question.
Not nearly straightforward enough to use the “No. Next question.” move on. Deception and various forms of active manipulation are possible. They are rational, not omniscient.
Punishing people sucks the same way paying for stuff you take sucks, or working hard to achieve your goals sucks. You should be able to conceive of the fact that short term suck can pay for long term good. Pretending that punishment is good because it pays for good is stupid and you will get confused if you think like that.
A judge or parent who understands that punishment is bad is not necessarily going to not do it. They may also understand that following thru on punishment threats is necessary to keep the threat credible.
Those words are loaded with connotation. Why are you using them? Say what is bad about punishing too much or too little without using words like that. You may find that too much punishment is bad because punishment is bad, and not enough punishment is bad because it fails to follow thru on the precommitment to punish that holds up the rule of law.
Really? So theres no such thing as extenuating circumstances where we let someone off, but everyone understands that the threat of punishment is still there?
Maybe it was an accident, maybe punishing the weather won’t make it sunnier, maybe we should deal with the insane a little bit differently.
Yes, of course. Indeed, there are few long term goods that can be purchased without short term suck.
But you weren’t arguing that punishing criminals was a long term bad, or even insufficiently good. You were arguing that it was short term suck.
Invert the order of the sentences, and you have your answer. But I will answer at length:
The history and law and order is one of long and painful experience. The common law definition of “assault” did not spring forth from first principles, it was learned.
The source of order is deterrence; deterrence rests on expectations; expectations rest on identities. The brute is resisted in a way that the even-handed is not; the infirm are flaunted in a way that the firm are not.
Accepting any excuse reduces the credibility of the commitment. Sometimes you may think that reduction is acceptable, but you should never pretend it was absent.
Yes? Punishing criminals sucks, but it pays for the rule of law. I miss your point.
still don’t get it
agree
agree
wat? I don’t understand. What has identity got to do with anything? And too many loaded words. What does “even-handed” even mean, apart from “vaguely good and something to do with justice”?
Agreed. I thought you meant there weren’t cases that were worth it.
If you consider “not being a brute” part of your identity, you are less likely to act like a brute.