“Avada Kedavra’s a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it—you could all get your wands out and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I’d get so much as a nosebleed.”
Alastor Moody (ala Onegl Pebhpu, We.) in Goblet of Fire.
Incidentally, I’m not sure how broken elementary charms are in combat other than Transfiguration, and being particularly deadly with Transfiguration without killing yourself requires… not neccesarily Quirrel levels of mana, but some pretty fast transfiguration.
It was always my perception that 1. In Azkaban, Harry had almost cast AK on Bellatrix and Quirrel and 2. Before Mad-eye explained that AK is homing and penetrates walls, that it had to be a fairly easy curse compared to, say, Fiendfire or a Cutting Charm or the Mass Accelerating Charm.
1) …huh. I didn’t get that impression. I mean, I certainly got the impression that Harry was going to kill them (starting with the auror) but he doesn’t know AK, and one thing Harry has never had trouble with was coming up with clever ways of killing.
2) Um. Homing?
The first is that the Killing Curse strikes directly at the soul, and it’ll just keep going until it hits one. Straight through shields. Straight through walls.
I guess I can see where you got that impression, but that wasn’t my interpretation at all. I thought it just meant that it will continue going on until it hits a soul, off in a straight line (though obviously I was curious about whether it will curve with the Earth, could you drill into the ground and give a pathway up for magma, etc.).
Hmmmm… Let me describe my perceptions of Rationalverse spells…
Avada Kedavra: Moderate to fast bolt, at least a little bit homing or auto-targeting (Allegedly the Sumerian Simple Strike ‘has a tendency to hit whatever you look at’, this might be similar) at souls, penetrates all normal shields, penetrates at least a few inches of mundane material but probably cannot be targeted in a hugely indirect manner, or would be overpowered. If it homed really well, or was both auto-targetting and an instantaneous bolt, nobody would be able to dodge it. Also, I think that AK does not normally do material damage?
The big question is: Why use AK rather than any other curse? Even a moderately powerful wizard should be quite lethal, let alone one educated by Dark Lord Verres. Voldemort is creative enough… Reasons I can think of that are actually stated are only that it penetrates shields and walls. If that were the only advantage, there would be no point in it.
Incidentally, a certain irrational part of me will not be truly satisfied unless we see the Battle of Hogwarts, HPMOR style. Although it would hard to keep that to a visually exciting level, rather than HPJEV just burning everything...
Moderate to fast bolt seems reasonable. I don’t really see it as homing so much as it tends to fly in the direction that you wish it to, without the ability to adjust its flightpath.
It seems that it penetrates all shields, period. Also all materials, period. I mean, I don’t get how you can see
Straight through shields. Straight through walls.
And think that it would only penetrate a few inches. I’m not saying that Moody is necessarily being completely truthful (though the silence of everyone else in the room is evidence to either truth or preestablished falsehoods) but from what he said, it looks like throwing up a rock or placing a suit of armor between you and the bolt wouldn’t actually work. Those kinds of blocks worked in canon, and it did damage the objects. It just doesn’t hurt what it hits when said object has a soul.
Hugely indirect? Do you mean the bolt curving around to target the victim? Or do you mean shooting it from quite a ways away?
It’s a one-hit kill spell—if your opponent mostly dodges a Cutting Curse, only brushing them a bit, then they’d come away with a small cut. If they mostly dodge an AK, they’re still dead. Also being able to ignore any sort of shield or cover—esp in the Rationverse with their much more complex and comprehensive shields—is incredibly helpful.
Only a few inches: There is a huge difference between typical house walls and all the walls in the path of several buildings. There is also a difference between that and a large chord of the Earth. (By comparison, modern heavy machine guns may penetrate a whole city block provided they don’t hit anything really heavy, man-portable small arms may penetrate several weaker house walls, or some masonry.)
Hugely Indirect:
If you can shoot Avada Kedavra through a significant chord of the Earth, then it seems like it would be broken. Targetting might be a problem, but for all the uncreativity of Rationalverse wizards, they are not that bad.
Power: Of course, we’ve only seen two lethal fights in the Rationalverse. (Team Weasley against the troll, and Quirrel against an Azkaban Auror). Team Weasley seems to use spells that seem like they would be instantly disabling if not fatal against a human, especially with more mana behind them. However, shields might change that significantly (How do shields interact with material forces? We’ve only ever seen this once. Most people use shields to protect against personal effect spells!) What about counterspells? (Unclear how this works, seems to care about stamina or mana, but we’ve never had a good description of them even though high-powered fighters use them a LOT, and Quirrel relies on them exclusively. Quirrel took a while to fight the Auror, but was going for shock, and not fighting anywhere near full strength. Plus he probably had to attack shields to avoid killing the Auror.
What about Hypothetical Auror-Level HPEJV? If Harry can transfigure at a rate of 250 grams per second, he will be able to spam Muggle-style kinetic, directed energy, and explosive weapons, especially if he can use physical or magical air protection and armor. These also would benefit from having no audible incantation and a faster time to first impact. (Nothing like Lily Potter shredding Voldemort with a hail of Transfigured recoil-less rounds!) Granted, most wizards are not aware of this possibility, but it suggests that AK has odd characteristics compared to, say, AK-47.
I see. I didn’t see it as “it will go through a wall,” I saw it as “once it is fired, it will go through anything, and keep on going through it until it hits a soul.” Which even on reflection appears to be the more correct interpretation, but that is just my view.
...you don’t think that they are that bad, that they could not figure out how to hit a moving target, with a projectile a few inches across, moving slow enough that it can be dodged within a few meters, without the ability to adjust the projectile midflight, through a significant chord of the Earth, when their highest math is apparently trigonometry (ch6)?
From the tidbits we’ve heard about dueling and fighting, yes, shields change that considerably.
Could you go into detail about how he could spam these things? I’m quite interested in the concept :)
I guess not a significant chord of the earth, but AK-sniping through huge amounts of intervening material still seems like something that would happen.
Spammable Transfigured Muggle Weaponry:
This could work a LOT of ways. All of these involve breaking McGonagall’s Rules of Transfiguration, but could be made safe for the weapon-user and bystanders using various tricks such as transfiguring (maybe partial transfiguration) them out of very small objects, transfiguring them out of water or other nontoxic substances, or using magical or mundane air protection.
Many of these might merit some way to easily provide transfiguration feedstock to one’s wand. HPEJV might wrap a strip of duct tape around the end of his wand and transfigure tiny parts of it at a time.
It may be possible to transfigure matter in motion or radiation in flight (Fuzzy line!). If so, then hypothetical Harry with a rate of 1 kg/s can generate over 50 petawatts in beam power. (This would probably be fatal.).
Even if not, than Harry might Transfigure very small beam generation units, primed to fire, and let them fall away (or Finite them) as soon as they have fired. For example, one might transfigure a unit consisting of a super-radioactive (half-life in milliseconds) isotope and beam collimation assembly, or a laser rod in the process of firing from pre-charged capacitors. These devices would do their work as they either fall away or are suspended by telekinesis or some kind of frame.
Alternatively, one could simply transfigure Muggle weapons. McGonagall claims that Muggle guns are not too effective against a good wizard, but she probably is talking about normal small arms. Gyrojet (rocket) weapons or ones that work on the recoil-less rifle principle generate no recoil. Harry could transfigure a stripped-down multi-rocket-launcher or heavy Gyrojet machine pistol right into his hand, fire the entire magazine in less than a second, drop it, and transfigure another. I suspect that even Quirrel might have a hard time dealing with the combined effect of curses applied to bullets, the bullets themselves, and any messes of acid or white phosphorus or other horrific things when they come at him thick enough, and Finite would not be fast enough.
Is the Killing Curse even difficult or costly in mana?
Alastor Moody (ala Onegl Pebhpu, We.) in Goblet of Fire.
That’s… interesting.
Incidentally, I’m not sure how broken elementary charms are in combat other than Transfiguration, and being particularly deadly with Transfiguration without killing yourself requires… not neccesarily Quirrel levels of mana, but some pretty fast transfiguration.
It was always my perception that 1. In Azkaban, Harry had almost cast AK on Bellatrix and Quirrel and 2. Before Mad-eye explained that AK is homing and penetrates walls, that it had to be a fairly easy curse compared to, say, Fiendfire or a Cutting Charm or the Mass Accelerating Charm.
1) …huh. I didn’t get that impression. I mean, I certainly got the impression that Harry was going to kill them (starting with the auror) but he doesn’t know AK, and one thing Harry has never had trouble with was coming up with clever ways of killing.
2) Um. Homing?
I guess I can see where you got that impression, but that wasn’t my interpretation at all. I thought it just meant that it will continue going on until it hits a soul, off in a straight line (though obviously I was curious about whether it will curve with the Earth, could you drill into the ground and give a pathway up for magma, etc.).
Hmmmm… Let me describe my perceptions of Rationalverse spells…
Avada Kedavra: Moderate to fast bolt, at least a little bit homing or auto-targeting (Allegedly the Sumerian Simple Strike ‘has a tendency to hit whatever you look at’, this might be similar) at souls, penetrates all normal shields, penetrates at least a few inches of mundane material but probably cannot be targeted in a hugely indirect manner, or would be overpowered. If it homed really well, or was both auto-targetting and an instantaneous bolt, nobody would be able to dodge it. Also, I think that AK does not normally do material damage?
The big question is: Why use AK rather than any other curse? Even a moderately powerful wizard should be quite lethal, let alone one educated by Dark Lord Verres. Voldemort is creative enough… Reasons I can think of that are actually stated are only that it penetrates shields and walls. If that were the only advantage, there would be no point in it.
Incidentally, a certain irrational part of me will not be truly satisfied unless we see the Battle of Hogwarts, HPMOR style. Although it would hard to keep that to a visually exciting level, rather than HPJEV just burning everything...
Moderate to fast bolt seems reasonable. I don’t really see it as homing so much as it tends to fly in the direction that you wish it to, without the ability to adjust its flightpath.
It seems that it penetrates all shields, period. Also all materials, period. I mean, I don’t get how you can see
And think that it would only penetrate a few inches. I’m not saying that Moody is necessarily being completely truthful (though the silence of everyone else in the room is evidence to either truth or preestablished falsehoods) but from what he said, it looks like throwing up a rock or placing a suit of armor between you and the bolt wouldn’t actually work. Those kinds of blocks worked in canon, and it did damage the objects. It just doesn’t hurt what it hits when said object has a soul.
Hugely indirect? Do you mean the bolt curving around to target the victim? Or do you mean shooting it from quite a ways away?
It’s a one-hit kill spell—if your opponent mostly dodges a Cutting Curse, only brushing them a bit, then they’d come away with a small cut. If they mostly dodge an AK, they’re still dead. Also being able to ignore any sort of shield or cover—esp in the Rationverse with their much more complex and comprehensive shields—is incredibly helpful.
Or at the very least, this is how I see it.
Only a few inches: There is a huge difference between typical house walls and all the walls in the path of several buildings. There is also a difference between that and a large chord of the Earth. (By comparison, modern heavy machine guns may penetrate a whole city block provided they don’t hit anything really heavy, man-portable small arms may penetrate several weaker house walls, or some masonry.)
Hugely Indirect: If you can shoot Avada Kedavra through a significant chord of the Earth, then it seems like it would be broken. Targetting might be a problem, but for all the uncreativity of Rationalverse wizards, they are not that bad.
Power: Of course, we’ve only seen two lethal fights in the Rationalverse. (Team Weasley against the troll, and Quirrel against an Azkaban Auror). Team Weasley seems to use spells that seem like they would be instantly disabling if not fatal against a human, especially with more mana behind them. However, shields might change that significantly (How do shields interact with material forces? We’ve only ever seen this once. Most people use shields to protect against personal effect spells!) What about counterspells? (Unclear how this works, seems to care about stamina or mana, but we’ve never had a good description of them even though high-powered fighters use them a LOT, and Quirrel relies on them exclusively. Quirrel took a while to fight the Auror, but was going for shock, and not fighting anywhere near full strength. Plus he probably had to attack shields to avoid killing the Auror.
What about Hypothetical Auror-Level HPEJV? If Harry can transfigure at a rate of 250 grams per second, he will be able to spam Muggle-style kinetic, directed energy, and explosive weapons, especially if he can use physical or magical air protection and armor. These also would benefit from having no audible incantation and a faster time to first impact. (Nothing like Lily Potter shredding Voldemort with a hail of Transfigured recoil-less rounds!) Granted, most wizards are not aware of this possibility, but it suggests that AK has odd characteristics compared to, say, AK-47.
I see. I didn’t see it as “it will go through a wall,” I saw it as “once it is fired, it will go through anything, and keep on going through it until it hits a soul.” Which even on reflection appears to be the more correct interpretation, but that is just my view.
...you don’t think that they are that bad, that they could not figure out how to hit a moving target, with a projectile a few inches across, moving slow enough that it can be dodged within a few meters, without the ability to adjust the projectile midflight, through a significant chord of the Earth, when their highest math is apparently trigonometry (ch6)?
From the tidbits we’ve heard about dueling and fighting, yes, shields change that considerably.
Could you go into detail about how he could spam these things? I’m quite interested in the concept :)
I guess not a significant chord of the earth, but AK-sniping through huge amounts of intervening material still seems like something that would happen.
Spammable Transfigured Muggle Weaponry:
This could work a LOT of ways. All of these involve breaking McGonagall’s Rules of Transfiguration, but could be made safe for the weapon-user and bystanders using various tricks such as transfiguring (maybe partial transfiguration) them out of very small objects, transfiguring them out of water or other nontoxic substances, or using magical or mundane air protection.
Many of these might merit some way to easily provide transfiguration feedstock to one’s wand. HPEJV might wrap a strip of duct tape around the end of his wand and transfigure tiny parts of it at a time.
It may be possible to transfigure matter in motion or radiation in flight (Fuzzy line!). If so, then hypothetical Harry with a rate of 1 kg/s can generate over 50 petawatts in beam power. (This would probably be fatal.).
Even if not, than Harry might Transfigure very small beam generation units, primed to fire, and let them fall away (or Finite them) as soon as they have fired. For example, one might transfigure a unit consisting of a super-radioactive (half-life in milliseconds) isotope and beam collimation assembly, or a laser rod in the process of firing from pre-charged capacitors. These devices would do their work as they either fall away or are suspended by telekinesis or some kind of frame.
Alternatively, one could simply transfigure Muggle weapons. McGonagall claims that Muggle guns are not too effective against a good wizard, but she probably is talking about normal small arms. Gyrojet (rocket) weapons or ones that work on the recoil-less rifle principle generate no recoil. Harry could transfigure a stripped-down multi-rocket-launcher or heavy Gyrojet machine pistol right into his hand, fire the entire magazine in less than a second, drop it, and transfigure another. I suspect that even Quirrel might have a hard time dealing with the combined effect of curses applied to bullets, the bullets themselves, and any messes of acid or white phosphorus or other horrific things when they come at him thick enough, and Finite would not be fast enough.