The Heterosexual White Males example rubs me the wrong way.
The article deals tightly scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none.
Our Dunbarian minds probably just plain can’t get how a society can be that complex and unpredictable without it being “planned” by a cabal of Satan or Heterosexual White Males or the Illuminati (but I repeat myself twice) scheming to make weird things happen in our oblivious small stone age tribe.
The line was a joke alluding to acceptable targets. However since you responded seriously and with concern I think I should reply in kind.
I haven’t heard of what I’d call conspiracy theories about that, and it doesn’t match the ridiculousness of Satan or the Illuminati.
I find this hard to believe. They aren’t really used in such theories exactly the way a devil would be (oh wait), but I dare say they are invoked in the same way Jews sometimes are. And surely a list of Satan, the Iluminati and the Jews makes intuitive sense? ;) Even the most ardent anti-semite in conversation assures you that while most Jews are annoying they probably aren’t all involved in plots to enslave mankind. The MacDonald inspired anti-semite will further argue that because of their culture they can’t help but subconsciously sabotage wider society for the benefit of their ethnic group. He will also even point out one or two good Jews, usually the kind that exposes the fiendish plots of other Jews.
Are anti-semites conspiracy theorists? Not all of them. One can have hatred or dislike for the Jewish or any other people and avoid spinning any such tales at all. But often conspiracy theories used to support such positions are quite common among them. A different example of this would be the conspiracy theories regarding Armenians. The pattern even holds for Anti-American sentiments.
Keeping this in mind I ask you to search for some conspiracy theories about the origins of AIDS. Mind you these are quite popular in some circles. Are you really claiming you never head of such tales? Don’t White Heterosexual males play the role of Satan or the Jews in them? It seems strange to deny that they indeed to. It also seems hard to dispute that the image evoked by The Man is such a male.
Even if you discount all these example, what about the theories such as that of Babylonian oppression?
Some Rastafarians maintain that a white racist patriarchy (“Babylon”) controls the world in order to oppress the African race.[32] They believe that Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia did not die when it was reported in 1975, and that the racist, white media (“Babylon”) propagated that rumour in order to squash the Rastafari Movement and its message of overthrowing Babylon.[33]
These indeed this one exactly fit the bill of my joke and is far from the only one of its kind.
Well, hmm. I’m not really sure that it was in good taste nonetheless. I understand that you’re joking, and that there are conspiracy theories like that. That Jews, the Illuminati, or Heterosexual White Males have a big conspiracy to rule the world is a pretty silly idea, that’s true. Here’s what I think the thing is. Straight white males are the least discriminated against and therefore probably most likely to be dismissive of the idea that racism, sexism ect still exist and such. People don’t really like hearing that their group has it good and that they’re ignorant, and can get defensive. As a reaction they might set themselves against that whole idea and dismiss it whenever possible. That’s why your comment came off that way to me, because that seemed a likely way for it to have come about. And even as just a joke, I don’t think it’s a good idea, because it’s a serious issue and joking about it makes it less serious, I guess? And even if you think that still isn’t reason enough, multiple other people seem to have gotten the same sort of vibe from it, so. That’s my two cents.
Oh, and your first comment, about scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none- is that a jab at me supposedly doing that? Excuse me if it isn’t, I’m looking at it and having trouble coming up with other things it could be… other than maybe saying this is off-topic. But I thought I was pretty careful in the way I phrased things to say what it came off as to me and not what it is.
Straight white males are the least discriminated against and therefore probably most likely to be dismissive of the idea that racism, sexism ect still exist and such.
I don’t doubt they exist at all.
Oh, and your first comment, about scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none- is that a jab at me supposedly doing that?
No. Thought I must admit I’m not quite sure which comment you have in mind. I do think I mentioned something like that in the original form of this comment, but it was aimed at categorizing the kinds of conspiracies I linked to and didn’t have anything to do with this fork of the conversation.
Edit: Ugh I’m so stupid, of course you where refering to the first comment in this exchange. I forgot about that line. No it wasn’t targeted at you I was setting up my explanation of why I thought it made a good joke/example. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Straight white males are the least discriminated against and therefore probably most likely to be dismissive of the idea that racism, sexism ect still exist and such.
I am well aware that these prejudices exist. I even spot prejudice implicit in this very sentence.
Oh, huh. I didn’t mean to do that. Do you think you could point it out for me? I’m no expert.
And I’m not trying to say that such a large portion of straight white males aren’t aware of these prejudices that you’d need to provide anecdotal evidence to the contrary, haha. ?
That’s a conspiracy theory about whites, not “white heterosexual males”. Most focus on “white heterosexual males” if anything is an anti-conspiracy theory, since what is posited is not coordination but rather more oblivious people who just don’t realize that not everyone is in their position or has their viewpoints. For example, when people speak of “white male privilege” they don’t mean there’s a conspiracy theory to help white males, but rather that white males do have advantages in much of society and we often don’t realize it. Similarly, when people talk about heteronormativity, they are generally talking about people taking for granted certain types of sex and gender roles as universal.
The appropriate analogy might be that there are people who think the Illuminati created the banking crisis. That’s distinct from thinking that specific systemic problems and competence issues created the problem.
Again, in most forms it isn’t a conspiracy theory- the people advocating it don’t generally argue that there’s an overarching conspiracy as much. Some of them do move to the conspiratorial end, but even then they don’t approach full blown conspiracy in the sense of deliberate hidden coordination.
Ah, yes that would fall into the conspiracy theory outright. There’s no question that there are quite a few conspiracies about “whites” as the explicit conspiracy group. I think my confusion in this context stemmed from your use of patriarchy- as far as I’m aware the Rastafarian conspiracy doesn’t make any point about patriarchy or heterosexuality, which are relevant in the original context.
Huh. That’s interesting. I’ve never seen an emphasis on patriarchy in the Rastafarian material I’ve seen. I’ll have to look into that in more detail. The sources that Wikipedia entry give are a dead link and this which doesn’t seem to mention a patriarchal aspect as far as I can tell.
The article deals tightly scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none.
The line was a joke alluding to acceptable targets. However since you responded seriously and with concern I think I should reply in kind.
I find this hard to believe. They aren’t really used in such theories exactly the way a devil would be (oh wait), but I dare say they are invoked in the same way Jews sometimes are. And surely a list of Satan, the Iluminati and the Jews makes intuitive sense? ;) Even the most ardent anti-semite in conversation assures you that while most Jews are annoying they probably aren’t all involved in plots to enslave mankind. The MacDonald inspired anti-semite will further argue that because of their culture they can’t help but subconsciously sabotage wider society for the benefit of their ethnic group. He will also even point out one or two good Jews, usually the kind that exposes the fiendish plots of other Jews.
Are anti-semites conspiracy theorists? Not all of them. One can have hatred or dislike for the Jewish or any other people and avoid spinning any such tales at all. But often conspiracy theories used to support such positions are quite common among them. A different example of this would be the conspiracy theories regarding Armenians. The pattern even holds for Anti-American sentiments.
Keeping this in mind I ask you to search for some conspiracy theories about the origins of AIDS. Mind you these are quite popular in some circles. Are you really claiming you never head of such tales? Don’t White Heterosexual males play the role of Satan or the Jews in them? It seems strange to deny that they indeed to. It also seems hard to dispute that the image evoked by The Man is such a male.
Even if you discount all these example, what about the theories such as that of Babylonian oppression?
These indeed this one exactly fit the bill of my joke and is far from the only one of its kind.
Well, hmm. I’m not really sure that it was in good taste nonetheless. I understand that you’re joking, and that there are conspiracy theories like that. That Jews, the Illuminati, or Heterosexual White Males have a big conspiracy to rule the world is a pretty silly idea, that’s true. Here’s what I think the thing is. Straight white males are the least discriminated against and therefore probably most likely to be dismissive of the idea that racism, sexism ect still exist and such. People don’t really like hearing that their group has it good and that they’re ignorant, and can get defensive. As a reaction they might set themselves against that whole idea and dismiss it whenever possible. That’s why your comment came off that way to me, because that seemed a likely way for it to have come about. And even as just a joke, I don’t think it’s a good idea, because it’s a serious issue and joking about it makes it less serious, I guess? And even if you think that still isn’t reason enough, multiple other people seem to have gotten the same sort of vibe from it, so. That’s my two cents.
Oh, and your first comment, about scapegoating and seeing malignant agency where there is none- is that a jab at me supposedly doing that? Excuse me if it isn’t, I’m looking at it and having trouble coming up with other things it could be… other than maybe saying this is off-topic. But I thought I was pretty careful in the way I phrased things to say what it came off as to me and not what it is.
I don’t doubt they exist at all.
No. Thought I must admit I’m not quite sure which comment you have in mind. I do think I mentioned something like that in the original form of this comment, but it was aimed at categorizing the kinds of conspiracies I linked to and didn’t have anything to do with this fork of the conversation.
Edit: Ugh I’m so stupid, of course you where refering to the first comment in this exchange. I forgot about that line. No it wasn’t targeted at you I was setting up my explanation of why I thought it made a good joke/example. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Well, I’m not trying to say that you personally doubt they exist.
What I’d meant by the first comment, excuse me if I’d caused confusion by saying comment, is this:
I am well aware that these prejudices exist. I even spot prejudice implicit in this very sentence.
Oh, huh. I didn’t mean to do that. Do you think you could point it out for me? I’m no expert.
And I’m not trying to say that such a large portion of straight white males aren’t aware of these prejudices that you’d need to provide anecdotal evidence to the contrary, haha. ?
That’s a conspiracy theory about whites, not “white heterosexual males”. Most focus on “white heterosexual males” if anything is an anti-conspiracy theory, since what is posited is not coordination but rather more oblivious people who just don’t realize that not everyone is in their position or has their viewpoints. For example, when people speak of “white male privilege” they don’t mean there’s a conspiracy theory to help white males, but rather that white males do have advantages in much of society and we often don’t realize it. Similarly, when people talk about heteronormativity, they are generally talking about people taking for granted certain types of sex and gender roles as universal.
The appropriate analogy might be that there are people who think the Illuminati created the banking crisis. That’s distinct from thinking that specific systemic problems and competence issues created the problem.
The white racist patriarchy is not male at least? I’m sure it will be very disappointed to hear that.
Again, in most forms it isn’t a conspiracy theory- the people advocating it don’t generally argue that there’s an overarching conspiracy as much. Some of them do move to the conspiratorial end, but even then they don’t approach full blown conspiracy in the sense of deliberate hidden coordination.
I was specifically referencing the Rastafarian conspiracy theory I quoted previously.
Ah, yes that would fall into the conspiracy theory outright. There’s no question that there are quite a few conspiracies about “whites” as the explicit conspiracy group. I think my confusion in this context stemmed from your use of patriarchy- as far as I’m aware the Rastafarian conspiracy doesn’t make any point about patriarchy or heterosexuality, which are relevant in the original context.
Huh. That’s interesting. I’ve never seen an emphasis on patriarchy in the Rastafarian material I’ve seen. I’ll have to look into that in more detail. The sources that Wikipedia entry give are a dead link and this which doesn’t seem to mention a patriarchal aspect as far as I can tell.