I recently spoke with someone who was in favor of legalizing all drugs, who would not admit that criminalizing something reduces the frequency at which people do it.
Portugal, anyone? There is a point when arguments need to be abandoned and experimental results embraced. The decriminalization of drugs in Portugal has seen a scant increase in drug use. QED
The same goes for policies like Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Many countries around the world have run the experiment of letting gays serve openly and there have been no ill effects.
There is something fishy about the words “legalize” and “decriminalize.” Buying, selling, making and consuming wine are legal activities in Portugal. Not marijuana.
The claim of sensible consequentialist (as opposed to moralizing) drug control advocates who are in favor of the War on Drugs is that the War on Drugs, however disastrous, expensive, destructive of liberties, and perverting of justice (to whatever degree they will accept such claims—can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, etc.), is a lesser evil than the consequences of unbridled drug use. This claim is most obviously falsified by a net decrease in drug use, yes, but also falsified by a small increase which is not obviously worse than the War on Drugs since now the anti-War person can use the same argument as the pro-War person was: legalization is the lesser of two evils.
The benefits and small costs in Portugal are, at least at face value, not worse than a War. Hence, the second branch goes through: the predicted magnitude of consequences did not materialize.
Note that PhilGoetz, following the subject of the thread, pointed out a good consequence of drug control (that is, good on its own terms) that an opponent of drug control refused to acknowledge. AndyCossyleon apparently thought that the Portugal example is a counterpoint to what PhilGoetz said, which it isn’t (though as you point out it is evidence against some views held by drug control advocates). In retrospect, I should have said “rebuts PhilGoetz’s point” instead of “supports your view” in the grandparent.
AlexSchell, “scant” is essentially a negative, much like “scarce(ly)” or “hardly” or “negligible/y”. Rewriting: “The decriminalization of drugs in Portugal has scarcely seen an increase in drug use.” I’d argue that these sentences mean the same thing, and that together, they mean something different from “The decriminalization … has seen a small increase …” which is what you seem to have interpreted my statement as, though not completely illegitimately.
I would still read that as an increase. “Scant,” “scarcely,” etc., all mean “an amount so small it is negligible.” But that’s still an increase. 1 + 99^99 isn’t 99^99.
I understand what is trying to be said in the argument concerning decriminalization, but strictly-speaking, that is an increase in drug use.
Was that actually his claim or was he saying that it doesn’t necessarily reduce the frequency at which people do it? Clearly the frequency of drug use has gone up since they were made illegal. Now perhaps it would have gone up faster if drug use had not been made illegal but that’s rather hard to demonstrate. It’s at least plausible that some of the popularity of drugs stems from their illegality as it makes them a more effective symbol of rebellion against authority for teenagers seeking to signal rebelliousness.
Claiming that criminalizing can’t possibly reduce the frequency at which people do something would be a pretty ridiculous claim. Claiming that it hasn’t in fact done so for drugs is quite defensible.
In the real world, PhilGoetz’s interlocutor was almost certainly not making the sophisticated point that in some scenarios making X illegal makes it more desirable in a way that outweighs the (perhaps low) extra costs of doing X. If the person had been making this point, it would be very hard to mistake them for the kind of person PhilGoetz describes.
I recently spoke with someone who was in favor of legalizing all drugs, who would not admit that criminalizing something reduces the frequency at which people do it.
Portugal, anyone? There is a point when arguments need to be abandoned and experimental results embraced. The decriminalization of drugs in Portugal has seen a scant increase in drug use. QED
The same goes for policies like Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Many countries around the world have run the experiment of letting gays serve openly and there have been no ill effects.
Abandon rationalization, embrace reality.
There is something fishy about the words “legalize” and “decriminalize.” Buying, selling, making and consuming wine are legal activities in Portugal. Not marijuana.
So you think an increase in drug use following decriminalization supports your view? And you were upvoted?
The claim of sensible consequentialist (as opposed to moralizing) drug control advocates who are in favor of the War on Drugs is that the War on Drugs, however disastrous, expensive, destructive of liberties, and perverting of justice (to whatever degree they will accept such claims—can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, etc.), is a lesser evil than the consequences of unbridled drug use. This claim is most obviously falsified by a net decrease in drug use, yes, but also falsified by a small increase which is not obviously worse than the War on Drugs since now the anti-War person can use the same argument as the pro-War person was: legalization is the lesser of two evils.
The benefits and small costs in Portugal are, at least at face value, not worse than a War. Hence, the second branch goes through: the predicted magnitude of consequences did not materialize.
I agree completely.
Note that PhilGoetz, following the subject of the thread, pointed out a good consequence of drug control (that is, good on its own terms) that an opponent of drug control refused to acknowledge. AndyCossyleon apparently thought that the Portugal example is a counterpoint to what PhilGoetz said, which it isn’t (though as you point out it is evidence against some views held by drug control advocates). In retrospect, I should have said “rebuts PhilGoetz’s point” instead of “supports your view” in the grandparent.
AlexSchell, “scant” is essentially a negative, much like “scarce(ly)” or “hardly” or “negligible/y”. Rewriting: “The decriminalization of drugs in Portugal has scarcely seen an increase in drug use.” I’d argue that these sentences mean the same thing, and that together, they mean something different from “The decriminalization … has seen a small increase …” which is what you seem to have interpreted my statement as, though not completely illegitimately.
I would still read that as an increase. “Scant,” “scarcely,” etc., all mean “an amount so small it is negligible.” But that’s still an increase. 1 + 99^99 isn’t 99^99. I understand what is trying to be said in the argument concerning decriminalization, but strictly-speaking, that is an increase in drug use.
Funny. The response to AndyCossyleon at the time should have been a link to this post.
Was that actually his claim or was he saying that it doesn’t necessarily reduce the frequency at which people do it? Clearly the frequency of drug use has gone up since they were made illegal. Now perhaps it would have gone up faster if drug use had not been made illegal but that’s rather hard to demonstrate. It’s at least plausible that some of the popularity of drugs stems from their illegality as it makes them a more effective symbol of rebellion against authority for teenagers seeking to signal rebelliousness.
Claiming that criminalizing can’t possibly reduce the frequency at which people do something would be a pretty ridiculous claim. Claiming that it hasn’t in fact done so for drugs is quite defensible.
In the real world, PhilGoetz’s interlocutor was almost certainly not making the sophisticated point that in some scenarios making X illegal makes it more desirable in a way that outweighs the (perhaps low) extra costs of doing X. If the person had been making this point, it would be very hard to mistake them for the kind of person PhilGoetz describes.