I realize that the “tone” of this part of your comment is light and humorous. I will respond to it anyway, hopefully with the understanding that this response is not directed at you, and rather at the memetic structure that you (correctly) have pointed out to me.
You are playing around with groundless stereotypes.
“Trying very hard not to be pattern-matched to a Straw Vulcan” does not make for correct emotional reasoning.
Activist sense (somewhat alike and unlike common sense) would say you have committed a microaggression. :)
Then it’s a good thing that we are in a community that values truth over social niceness, isn’t it?
Anyways, I appreciated your essay for a number of reasons but this paragraph in particular makes me feel very seen
“Trying very hard not to be pattern-matched to a Straw Vulcan” does not make for correct emotional reasoning.
Perhaps, but you implied there was a norm to not talk about feelings here; there is no such norm! Well, I expect not at least; maybe we are habitually shy about looking irrationally emotional even if we have internalized the proper philosophical relationship with emotion. Still it is clear from your remark that you do not have experience with the great multitude of occasions where this common misconception about LessWrong rationalists has been corrected.
Then it’s a good thing that we are in a community that values truth over social niceness, isn’t it?
I find it doubtful that you spoke truth, and I find it doubtful that you were non-misleading. Still, your honest and good-faith participation in the community is not to be punished, indeed; it was only a microaggression. I do not care for activist sense generally; just in this case the opportunity of compelling comparison was tempting.
I think this community generally values truth over social niceness, yes. Or at least that’s what we tell ourselves and can be held accountable to, which is not an irrelevant improvement compared to the outside population.
As for myself I do not value truth over niceness, to be frank. I recognize downvotes as the fair price for saying such a thing. “Social niceness” is irrelevant to me if it is not also real niceness. Without truth you will be misled (though you can be misled even with some truth). If you mislead others, that is not nice. Truths which seemed irrelevant can turn out to be relevant. So the nice thing is always to tell the non-misleading truth, save for extreme edge cases.
Perhaps, but you implied there was a norm to not talk about feelings here; there is no such norm!
I feel there is a certain “stoic” and “dignified” way to talk about feelings, here. This is the only way feelings are talked about, here. Only if they conform to a certain pattern.
But yeah, I can see how this is very far from obvious, and how one might disagree with that.
I find it doubtful that you spoke truth, and I find it doubtful that you were non-misleading.
I’m confused.
You appreciate my essay (and feel seen), but neverthess you believe I was being deliberately deceitful and misleading?
So the nice thing is always to tell the non-misleading truth, save for extreme edge cases.
I think I mostly agree. I am being “dath ilan nice”, not “Earth nice”. I am cooperating with your ideal-self by saying words which I believe are most likely to update you in the correct direction (=non-misleading), given my own computational limits and trade-offs in decision-making.
You appreciate my essay (and feel seen), but neverthess you believe I was being deliberately deceitful and misleading?
I just finished saying that your honest and good-faith participation was not to be punished; I mean it. You can be misleading out of innocent beginner-level familiarity; there is no need for deliberation. I was only upset that you were misleading about the general LessWrong philosophy’s stance on emotion; it is a common misrepresentation people make. I am not commenting on the misleadingness of anything else.
My (personal, individual) only conditions for your emotional expression:
Keep in mind to craft the conversation so that both of us walk away feeling more benefitted that it happened than malefitted, and keep in mind that I want the same.
Keep in mind that making relevant considerations not made before, and becoming more familiar of each other’s considerations, are my fundamental units of progress.
I accept everything abiding by those considerations, even insults. I am capable of terrible things; to reject all insults under all circumstances reflects overconfidence in one’s own sensitivity to relevance.
I was only upset that you were misleading about the general LessWrong philosophy’s stance on emotion
I stand by my point. To to put it in hyperbole: LW posts mostly feel like they have been written by “objectivity zombies”. The way to relate to one’s own emotions, in them, is how an “objectivity zombie” would relate to their own emotions. I didn’t say LWers didn’t have emotions, I said they didn’t talk about them. This is… I concede that this point was factually incorrect and merely a “conceptual signpost” to the idea I was trying to express. I appreciate you expressing your disagreement and helping me “zoom in” on the details of this.
I don’t relate to my emotions the way LWers do (or act like they do, based on the contents of their words; which I still find a hard time believing represent their true internal experiences, though I concede they might). If I wrote a post representing my true emotional experience the way it wants to be represented, I would get banned. About 2 to 5% of it would be in ALLCAPS. Most of it would not use capitalization (that is a “seriousness” indicator, which my raw thoughts mostly lack). (also some of the contents of the thoughts themselves would come across as incoherent and insane, probably).
Perhaps I would say: LW feels like playing at rationality rather than trying to be rational, because rationality is “supposed” to feel “serious”, it’s “supposed” to feel “objective”, etc etc. Those seem to be social indicators to distinguish LW from other communities, rather than anything that actually serves rationality.
My only conditions for your emotional expression:
Keep in mind to craft the conversation so that both of us walk away feeling more benefitted that it happened than malefitted, and keep in mind that I want the same.
Keep in mind that making relevant considerations not made before, and becoming more familiar of each other’s considerations, are my fundamental units of progress.
I accept everything abiding by those considerations, even insults. I am capable of terrible things; to reject all insults under all circumstances reflects overconfidence in one’s own sensitivity to relevance.
I mostly have no objection to the conditions you expressed. Thank you for letting me know.
Strictly speaking, I cannot be responsible for your experience of this conversation, but I communicate in a way I consider reasonable based on my model of you.
I see no reason to insult you, but thanks for letting me know it is an option :)
I realize that the “tone” of this part of your comment is light and humorous. I will respond to it anyway, hopefully with the understanding that this response is not directed at you, and rather at the memetic structure that you (correctly) have pointed out to me.
“Trying very hard not to be pattern-matched to a Straw Vulcan” does not make for correct emotional reasoning.
Then it’s a good thing that we are in a community that values truth over social niceness, isn’t it?
I am very glad to hear it.
Perhaps, but you implied there was a norm to not talk about feelings here; there is no such norm! Well, I expect not at least; maybe we are habitually shy about looking irrationally emotional even if we have internalized the proper philosophical relationship with emotion. Still it is clear from your remark that you do not have experience with the great multitude of occasions where this common misconception about LessWrong rationalists has been corrected.
I find it doubtful that you spoke truth, and I find it doubtful that you were non-misleading. Still, your honest and good-faith participation in the community is not to be punished, indeed; it was only a microaggression. I do not care for activist sense generally; just in this case the opportunity of compelling comparison was tempting.
I think this community generally values truth over social niceness, yes. Or at least that’s what we tell ourselves and can be held accountable to, which is not an irrelevant improvement compared to the outside population.
As for myself I do not value truth over niceness, to be frank. I recognize downvotes as the fair price for saying such a thing. “Social niceness” is irrelevant to me if it is not also real niceness. Without truth you will be misled (though you can be misled even with some truth). If you mislead others, that is not nice. Truths which seemed irrelevant can turn out to be relevant. So the nice thing is always to tell the non-misleading truth, save for extreme edge cases.
I feel there is a certain “stoic” and “dignified” way to talk about feelings, here. This is the only way feelings are talked about, here. Only if they conform to a certain pattern.
But yeah, I can see how this is very far from obvious, and how one might disagree with that.
I’m confused.
You appreciate my essay (and feel seen), but neverthess you believe I was being deliberately deceitful and misleading?
I think I mostly agree. I am being “dath ilan nice”, not “Earth nice”. I am cooperating with your ideal-self by saying words which I believe are most likely to update you in the correct direction (=non-misleading), given my own computational limits and trade-offs in decision-making.
I just finished saying that your honest and good-faith participation was not to be punished; I mean it. You can be misleading out of innocent beginner-level familiarity; there is no need for deliberation. I was only upset that you were misleading about the general LessWrong philosophy’s stance on emotion; it is a common misrepresentation people make. I am not commenting on the misleadingness of anything else.
My (personal, individual) only conditions for your emotional expression:
Keep in mind to craft the conversation so that both of us walk away feeling more benefitted that it happened than malefitted, and keep in mind that I want the same.
Keep in mind that making relevant considerations not made before, and becoming more familiar of each other’s considerations, are my fundamental units of progress.
I accept everything abiding by those considerations, even insults. I am capable of terrible things; to reject all insults under all circumstances reflects overconfidence in one’s own sensitivity to relevance.
I stand by my point. To to put it in hyperbole: LW posts mostly feel like they have been written by “objectivity zombies”. The way to relate to one’s own emotions, in them, is how an “objectivity zombie” would relate to their own emotions. I didn’t say LWers didn’t have emotions, I said they didn’t talk about them. This is… I concede that this point was factually incorrect and merely a “conceptual signpost” to the idea I was trying to express. I appreciate you expressing your disagreement and helping me “zoom in” on the details of this.
I don’t relate to my emotions the way LWers do (or act like they do, based on the contents of their words; which I still find a hard time believing represent their true internal experiences, though I concede they might). If I wrote a post representing my true emotional experience the way it wants to be represented, I would get banned. About 2 to 5% of it would be in ALLCAPS. Most of it would not use capitalization (that is a “seriousness” indicator, which my raw thoughts mostly lack). (also some of the contents of the thoughts themselves would come across as incoherent and insane, probably).
Perhaps I would say: LW feels like playing at rationality rather than trying to be rational, because rationality is “supposed” to feel “serious”, it’s “supposed” to feel “objective”, etc etc. Those seem to be social indicators to distinguish LW from other communities, rather than anything that actually serves rationality.
I mostly have no objection to the conditions you expressed. Thank you for letting me know.
Strictly speaking, I cannot be responsible for your experience of this conversation, but I communicate in a way I consider reasonable based on my model of you.
I see no reason to insult you, but thanks for letting me know it is an option :)
How could one confirm or refute such a claim?
Current technology and science does not seem capable of assessing true internal states. So with what means?