Nowhere much, just pointing out another reason for why his writing is so unappealing to me.
I agree that it’s more pleasant to read the writing of satisfied people than unsatisfied people.
I can’t visualize that in any way at all, if the “Society will never be tolerant enough” card is dropped.
I’m having trouble parsing this. Do you mean “homosexuality cannot be a detriment in a society where homosexuals are respected equally with heterosexuals”? Off the top of my head, I can think of three significant detriments in such a society, and could come up with more if I needed to. If you can’t come up with three, I don’t think you’re thinking about this issue clearly enough.
Well, he can’t write an article without mentioning the authoritarian, utterly clueless feminists who are trying to reshape the poor unwilling America into their image.
Yes, though I regret the loss of an opportunity for Multiheaded (and others) to test their imagination. Try to give this a full five minutes of thought before reading on.
My first three:
Smaller dating pool, by a factor of ~20: presuming the rate of gays is still ~3% of men, your dating pool goes from about 98% of women to about 5% of men. (Lesbians are less common than gay men by about a factor of 2, and so things are worse for them, though I believe bisexual women are more common than bisexual men.)
Inability to naturally conceive children.
Anal sex is much harder on the receiving partner than vaginal sex, particularly when it comes to the spread of blood-borne diseases like AIDS. (Two men can have sex without one of them bottoming, and pegging is a thing for heterosexual men, but it should be obvious that rates of bottoming with a potentially infectious partner are much higher among homosexuals, and while the situation is worsened by prejudice it is fundamentally an engineering issue.)
I’d say that 1 is compensated by the fundamentally different approach to dating between two men and a men and a woman, no matter what you might call their sexuality. I am speaking from personal experience!
Why the hell is 2 a net harm? Two partners who are confident they’re both clean can do anything without birth control and have absolutely no worries of unintended pregnancy.
3… well, I’ll be blunt, it’s only an issue for sexually unimaginative men who don’t stop to think and assume that they must have penetration in this way, otherwise they’re losing out on some amazing satisfaction. Me, I’ve never had it in either role and I’m not planning on it. My BF, if I remember correctly, doesn’t care for trying the passive role either, although he’s done active and found it to be nothing special compared to some other sexual activities.
If both men have a desire to have all their children be biologically related to them, they have to compromise or play around with gametes in a way that I believe is not commercially available.
well, I’ll be blunt, it’s only an issue
Well, I’m glad we agree it’s an issue.
for sexually unimaginative men who don’t stop to think
Ah. I’m glad I took the time to write out neutral qualifications to make clear that while this would not be an issue for every homosexual, it would be an issue for enough to be significant. I had the viewpoint of the receiving partner in mind, as it appears to give significantly better prostate stimulation than the next best option (though is about the same for the penetrating partner).
Overall, I must say, I’m disappointed. Policy debates should not appear one-sided.
Sometimes you just feel cornered (please take my incidents of pathologically low self-confidence into account); I don’t wish to come to believe that my or my significant other’s sexuality is a net harm even if the arguments in favor of that look convincing on the surface, because I have no idea of how to handle something like that in my life. Relinquishment is all fun and games until someone loses a body part.
Sometimes you just feel cornered; I don’t wish to come to believe that my or my significant other’s sexuality is a net harm even if the arguments in favor of that look convincing on the surface, because I have no idea of how to handle something like that in my life. Relinquishment is all fun and games until someone loses a body part.
Eh. Like I said, the question of what to do with existing people is very different from the question of what people we want to exist. We’re already gay, and that’s not going to change.
I am willing and able to separate the question of the best life for me-as-I-am from the question of the best life for a hypothetical me-as-I-am-not. I’m not sure I can offer emotional guidance on how to be able to make that separation, though, as I find it natural, and that’s likely to be the sticking point.
In 20 years having biological children would be much less of a problem for the average middle-class 1st world homosexual, and it’s already far from impossible if a huge investment (a quick Google search suggests that the total expenses for the surrogate motherhood option begin at around the 100 grand figure in America), -
-but today the process filters for commitment, at least, to the idea of having children and enforces some time to think about the decision. And there’s an incentive to adopt kids, too!
I understand there’s some research looking into that. I don’t have any links handy (and searching for them on my workstation seems like a bad idea), but if I recall correctly, inducing egg/egg fertilization has near-term potential. Sperm/sperm fertilization is a little further off, since sperm are essentially expendable delivery systems for genetic material; it’s the egg that has all the cellular machinery needed to bootstrap replication. By Multiheaded’s twenty years from now I wouldn’t be surprised to see either.
Seconded! Seconded! Also, I’m talking about bisexuality here as well, which he might simply be rolling into his concept of modern American homosexuality due to how underreported it is and how there’s no strong incentive to always put bisexuals into their own proper category.
(Note: I’m not downvoting you.)
I agree that it’s more pleasant to read the writing of satisfied people than unsatisfied people
Eliezer Yudkowsky is probably among the most unsatisfied humans alive right now; I think that the beauty and persuasiveness of his writing would suffer if he repressed his dissatisfaction with the current state of us more in his articles and such.
I agree that it’s more pleasant to read the writing of satisfied people than unsatisfied people.
I’m having trouble parsing this. Do you mean “homosexuality cannot be a detriment in a society where homosexuals are respected equally with heterosexuals”? Off the top of my head, I can think of three significant detriments in such a society, and could come up with more if I needed to. If you can’t come up with three, I don’t think you’re thinking about this issue clearly enough.
But… he can and does?
Can you elaborate please?
Yes, though I regret the loss of an opportunity for Multiheaded (and others) to test their imagination. Try to give this a full five minutes of thought before reading on.
My first three:
Smaller dating pool, by a factor of ~20: presuming the rate of gays is still ~3% of men, your dating pool goes from about 98% of women to about 5% of men. (Lesbians are less common than gay men by about a factor of 2, and so things are worse for them, though I believe bisexual women are more common than bisexual men.)
Inability to naturally conceive children.
Anal sex is much harder on the receiving partner than vaginal sex, particularly when it comes to the spread of blood-borne diseases like AIDS. (Two men can have sex without one of them bottoming, and pegging is a thing for heterosexual men, but it should be obvious that rates of bottoming with a potentially infectious partner are much higher among homosexuals, and while the situation is worsened by prejudice it is fundamentally an engineering issue.)
I’d say that 1 is compensated by the fundamentally different approach to dating between two men and a men and a woman, no matter what you might call their sexuality. I am speaking from personal experience!
Why the hell is 2 a net harm? Two partners who are confident they’re both clean can do anything without birth control and have absolutely no worries of unintended pregnancy.
3… well, I’ll be blunt, it’s only an issue for sexually unimaginative men who don’t stop to think and assume that they must have penetration in this way, otherwise they’re losing out on some amazing satisfaction. Me, I’ve never had it in either role and I’m not planning on it. My BF, if I remember correctly, doesn’t care for trying the passive role either, although he’s done active and found it to be nothing special compared to some other sexual activities.
As am I.
If both men have a desire to have all their children be biologically related to them, they have to compromise or play around with gametes in a way that I believe is not commercially available.
Well, I’m glad we agree it’s an issue.
Ah. I’m glad I took the time to write out neutral qualifications to make clear that while this would not be an issue for every homosexual, it would be an issue for enough to be significant. I had the viewpoint of the receiving partner in mind, as it appears to give significantly better prostate stimulation than the next best option (though is about the same for the penetrating partner).
Overall, I must say, I’m disappointed. Policy debates should not appear one-sided.
Sometimes you just feel cornered (please take my incidents of pathologically low self-confidence into account); I don’t wish to come to believe that my or my significant other’s sexuality is a net harm even if the arguments in favor of that look convincing on the surface, because I have no idea of how to handle something like that in my life. Relinquishment is all fun and games until someone loses a body part.
Eh. Like I said, the question of what to do with existing people is very different from the question of what people we want to exist. We’re already gay, and that’s not going to change.
I am willing and able to separate the question of the best life for me-as-I-am from the question of the best life for a hypothetical me-as-I-am-not. I’m not sure I can offer emotional guidance on how to be able to make that separation, though, as I find it natural, and that’s likely to be the sticking point.
While not everyone wants to have children of their own, it’s better to have a choice in the matter than not.
In 20 years having biological children would be much less of a problem for the average middle-class 1st world homosexual, and it’s already far from impossible if a huge investment (a quick Google search suggests that the total expenses for the surrogate motherhood option begin at around the 100 grand figure in America), -
-but today the process filters for commitment, at least, to the idea of having children and enforces some time to think about the decision. And there’s an incentive to adopt kids, too!
Also homosexual couples, because they are already using technology to reproduce, are much more likley to practice eugenics.
I’m surprised to realize that I probably have to say that, yes this would be a good thing.
It’s not impossible for one partner. What if both want to be the biological parent?
I understand there’s some research looking into that. I don’t have any links handy (and searching for them on my workstation seems like a bad idea), but if I recall correctly, inducing egg/egg fertilization has near-term potential. Sperm/sperm fertilization is a little further off, since sperm are essentially expendable delivery systems for genetic material; it’s the egg that has all the cellular machinery needed to bootstrap replication. By Multiheaded’s twenty years from now I wouldn’t be surprised to see either.
They scrounge up double the money and have two kids?
Allow me to rephrase. What if they want to make a child together?
Seconded! Seconded! Also, I’m talking about bisexuality here as well, which he might simply be rolling into his concept of modern American homosexuality due to how underreported it is and how there’s no strong incentive to always put bisexuals into their own proper category.
(Note: I’m not downvoting you.)
Eliezer Yudkowsky is probably among the most unsatisfied humans alive right now; I think that the beauty and persuasiveness of his writing would suffer if he repressed his dissatisfaction with the current state of us more in his articles and such.