The idea there that LGBT identification being out in the open has led to more pronounced heteronormativity signaling looks kinda interesting, actually.
On a sort-of-related subject, there are really are some unfortunate consequences for heterosexual men to being stuck in a society at the halfway point between intolerance of gays and actual equality.
In a lot of places in the developing world that are still at or close to the we-kill-people-for-being-gay stage, the (ridiculous) common wisdom is that since homosexuality is abnormal, there are no homosexuals (I have actually heard immigrants from parts of Africa claim that there are no homosexuals where they are from).
As a consequence of “nobody here is gay”, straight men can hug, hold hands, share a bed (literally—not a sex euphemism here), etc. without having their masculinity or sexual orientation challenged.
I think Western society would be better off if we could do that here too. I’m not willing to sacrifice the utility of gay people’s lives for it, however, so I see it as a reason to push faster for full LGBT acceptance.
I strongly suspect that one of the other consequences of the “there are no homosexuals” social norm in such cultures is that under certain circumstances same-sex pairs can also have sex with one another without having their sexual orientation “challenged.” (Similar things were true of opposite-sex pairs in cultures with the “there is no extramarital sex” cultural norm… e.g., bundling.)
But I agree with you that as long as queer visibility is noticeably higher than queer acceptability, there’s a class of previously acceptable behaviors that become less acceptable (e.g., certain expressions of affection), and I agree with you that that’s unfortunate, and I endorse closing that gap.
Further benefit of full queer acceptance: people of different genders could also hug, hold hands and share beds without summoning a chorus of “He liiiiikes her”.
Not necessarily. I went to college in a very queer-accepting social context, and the general assumption was that any couple, or group, that shared a bed was having sex (for some unspecified value of “sex”) regardless of their stated preferences. And rather a lot of good-natured teasing took place in consequence.
I’m really much more concerned with assault and murder than I am with teasing, though.
But certainly one couldn’t rationally argue from a humane position that the damage from something like that could add up to the point where it outweighs the cost of outlawing gay marriage, right?
For example, one could argue that refusing to recognize any marriages and therefore, implicitly, refusing to recognize (aka “outlawing”) same-sex marriages was a net benefit.
Or one could argue that common forms of heteronormativity signalling include anti-queer violence, bullying, discrimination in employment and residential selection and etc., and various other more substantial issues, and that those things are worse than discrimination in the recognition of marriage, so if official recognition of queer marriages results in more heteronormativity signaling and thus more violence, bullying, discrimination, etc. it causes more harm than good.
In fact, people do argue these positions in the real world.
As always on this issue, I feel a certain compulsion to reference my husband. He’s actually completely irrelevant here, but I generally expect people to be so primed to pattern-match on heteronormative privilege when I talk abstractly about queer equality that they don’t actually read what I say unless I do something to break that pattern.
Oh. Well, I admit that my bottom line is “Steve Sailer betrays his attitude of disgust and holding straight men above queers in many separate and unconnected phrases (like the “punishing” gaffe above) while taking care not to leave larger handholds to his critics.”
(nods) I haven’t read Sailer, but it’s not unlikely: lots of people do that.
Some years ago, I ran into someone at a party who was arguing essentially this position (that increased queer visibility/equality leads to increased straight anxiety which leads to increased violence and discrimination against queers, and therefore that working towards increased queer visibility/equality is a bad idea on the grounds that it makes things worse for queer people, and don’t we care about queer people?) and clearly getting off on the yummy contrarian goodness.
As I recall, I pointed out (calmly but loudly) that he was missing an opportunity to tailor his message to the group he was talking to, as this group was sufficiently accepting of trans folk that he could cause far more trouble more efficiently if he argued specifically that trans folk, as a more visible and vulnerable subset of the queer community, would receive the majority of the negative consequences of straight anxiety, and therefore queer equality was really just another way for gay folk to abuse and take advantage of trans folk. He could use the same strategy to divide gay men and lesbians and more generally to fragment the queer community to the point where we didn’t stand a chance of achieving our political goals.
It was kind of a funny moment, as I wasn’t following his script and he had to scramble a little to change tack.
I should have added, but didn’t, that it was important to get everyone upset enough in the process that nobody thought to ask why, if the only problem with queer equality was the threat posed by anxious straight folk, we shouldn’t deal with that by acting to minimize the power of anxious straight folk to hurt us.
The idea there that LGBT identification being out in the open has led to more pronounced heteronormativity signaling looks kinda interesting, actually.
On a sort-of-related subject, there are really are some unfortunate consequences for heterosexual men to being stuck in a society at the halfway point between intolerance of gays and actual equality.
In a lot of places in the developing world that are still at or close to the we-kill-people-for-being-gay stage, the (ridiculous) common wisdom is that since homosexuality is abnormal, there are no homosexuals (I have actually heard immigrants from parts of Africa claim that there are no homosexuals where they are from).
As a consequence of “nobody here is gay”, straight men can hug, hold hands, share a bed (literally—not a sex euphemism here), etc. without having their masculinity or sexual orientation challenged.
I think Western society would be better off if we could do that here too. I’m not willing to sacrifice the utility of gay people’s lives for it, however, so I see it as a reason to push faster for full LGBT acceptance.
I strongly suspect that one of the other consequences of the “there are no homosexuals” social norm in such cultures is that under certain circumstances same-sex pairs can also have sex with one another without having their sexual orientation “challenged.” (Similar things were true of opposite-sex pairs in cultures with the “there is no extramarital sex” cultural norm… e.g., bundling.)
But I agree with you that as long as queer visibility is noticeably higher than queer acceptability, there’s a class of previously acceptable behaviors that become less acceptable (e.g., certain expressions of affection), and I agree with you that that’s unfortunate, and I endorse closing that gap.
Further benefit of full queer acceptance: people of different genders could also hug, hold hands and share beds without summoning a chorus of “He liiiiikes her”.
Why would that follow? I don’t think it would.
Not necessarily. I went to college in a very queer-accepting social context, and the general assumption was that any couple, or group, that shared a bed was having sex (for some unspecified value of “sex”) regardless of their stated preferences. And rather a lot of good-natured teasing took place in consequence.
I’m really much more concerned with assault and murder than I am with teasing, though.
But certainly one couldn’t rationally argue from a humane position that the damage from something like that could add up to the point where it outweighs the cost of outlawing gay marriage, right?
Well, one could certainly argue it.
For example, one could argue that refusing to recognize any marriages and therefore, implicitly, refusing to recognize (aka “outlawing”) same-sex marriages was a net benefit.
Or one could argue that common forms of heteronormativity signalling include anti-queer violence, bullying, discrimination in employment and residential selection and etc., and various other more substantial issues, and that those things are worse than discrimination in the recognition of marriage, so if official recognition of queer marriages results in more heteronormativity signaling and thus more violence, bullying, discrimination, etc. it causes more harm than good.
In fact, people do argue these positions in the real world.
As always on this issue, I feel a certain compulsion to reference my husband. He’s actually completely irrelevant here, but I generally expect people to be so primed to pattern-match on heteronormative privilege when I talk abstractly about queer equality that they don’t actually read what I say unless I do something to break that pattern.
Oh. Well, I admit that my bottom line is “Steve Sailer betrays his attitude of disgust and holding straight men above queers in many separate and unconnected phrases (like the “punishing” gaffe above) while taking care not to leave larger handholds to his critics.”
(nods) I haven’t read Sailer, but it’s not unlikely: lots of people do that.
Some years ago, I ran into someone at a party who was arguing essentially this position (that increased queer visibility/equality leads to increased straight anxiety which leads to increased violence and discrimination against queers, and therefore that working towards increased queer visibility/equality is a bad idea on the grounds that it makes things worse for queer people, and don’t we care about queer people?) and clearly getting off on the yummy contrarian goodness.
As I recall, I pointed out (calmly but loudly) that he was missing an opportunity to tailor his message to the group he was talking to, as this group was sufficiently accepting of trans folk that he could cause far more trouble more efficiently if he argued specifically that trans folk, as a more visible and vulnerable subset of the queer community, would receive the majority of the negative consequences of straight anxiety, and therefore queer equality was really just another way for gay folk to abuse and take advantage of trans folk. He could use the same strategy to divide gay men and lesbians and more generally to fragment the queer community to the point where we didn’t stand a chance of achieving our political goals.
It was kind of a funny moment, as I wasn’t following his script and he had to scramble a little to change tack.
I should have added, but didn’t, that it was important to get everyone upset enough in the process that nobody thought to ask why, if the only problem with queer equality was the threat posed by anxious straight folk, we shouldn’t deal with that by acting to minimize the power of anxious straight folk to hurt us.
Heh.