Only in a very isolated point of view is introducing yourself to someone nearby an invasion. The rest of the world regards it as an ordinary action.
“Rest of the world” meaning where? This is actually quite an abnormal action in some parts of the world, depending on how strongly the culture encourages extroversion.
Please note that I’m not in any way suggesting anyone should force their company on another. I’m just saying, if you have ANY major reaction to something as ordinary as someone trying to introduce themselves to you, it is YOU that has the problem and you should be looking at yourself to see why you are having this extreme reaction to a non-extreme circumstance.
Do you think that it’s similarly problematic if a person is highly discomforted by people reasoning using tribal politics and refusing to consider issues on their individual merits? It’s totally ordinary behavior, after all.
A person can be poorly psychologically calibrated for their environment without being defective and in need of change.
Also, it may not be obvious to you, but extroverts are almost as isolated as introverts in our modern culture. Merely talking with people doesn’t mean you’re getting outside of yourself. You have to actually OPEN your mind, surrender your preconceptions, and engage in an honest exchange.
Most introverts actually have an easier time having deep, honest exchanges than extroverts do. They’re also less likely to agree that their lives would be improved by doing it more frequently with strangers. I’d recommend checking out this book, since it seems like you have a somewhat misaligned sense of what it implies for a person to be introverted.
I agree that approaching strangers is more frowned upon, say, in Japan. Perhaps ‘rest of the western world’ would have been a better choice of words.
You have the totally wrong sense of what I meant by ordinary. Try fitting what you said into the definition “both normal and healthy”; it doesn’t.
A person can be poorly psychologically calibrated for their environment without being defective and in need of change.
Defectiveness is really a subject that I’d prefer to keep out of any equation which is talking about people. Anyway, as far as I can see ‘in need of change’ holds true as long as said reaction impacts on your ability to live an effective and satisfying life. Personally my impression is that any major repression of emotions leads to personal problems (of the ‘excessively cold / unable or unwilling to relate’ kind).
They’re also less likely to agree that their lives would be improved by doing it more frequently with strangers.
People are disinclined to agree with a number of propositions that seem to hold true, particularly regarding social interactions and universal human faults. Mere disagreement doesn’t really constitute any evidence against those propositions.
I do understand, though, that introverts general preference for planned, controlled actions and everything fitting together as far as possible, would lead to disliking interaction with strangers, But as far as I can see, extroverts and introverts both need to try and balance themselves by taking on the virtues demonstrated by their opposites. I don’t regard introversion and extraversion as value neutral, rather, I regard them both as lopsided.
Quiet Power
Sure, I’ll read that IFF you read The Successful Self.
It’s certainly true that I find introverts frustrating—sometimes it seems like the world is divided into those who get it but can’t relate to me (Introverts) and those who can relate to me but don’t get it (Extraverts)*.
Having read Quiet Power, I certainly appreciate the recommendation, as it is a fascinating book. It has helped somewhat elaborate my model of introversion/extraversion. I especially liked the chapter comparing Western and Eastern social norms and their consequences.
What it hasn’t done is told me anything surprising about introverts—all the new information fits quite well into my existing model, which I derived mainly from Dorothy Rowe’s books and conversation with a particular introvert.
So, either I have failed to realize the significance of something I read, or my model is not actually misaligned in the way you thought. Could you be specific about what problem you saw?
(on reflection, I think my whole stance on this subject is orthogonal to the idea of temperament. My perception is that most of the thread starting at my original comment can be boiled down to RalfAndreasson and SaidAchmiz asserting “Don’t try to expand your social horizons in this particular way, because it invokes strong negative reactions in me”, and my responding “No, DO try. You may need it and there are others that need it, and trying is better than not trying in general. Individual emotional reactions, whether yours or others, shouldn’t get a look in as rationales for doing or not doing things.”.
No doubt I’ve idealized the clarity of my message there, but the point is this isn’t about marginalizing introverts, it’s about not committing the error of treating feelings as any kind of strong evidence, and about the general strength of choosing to try as a policy. Introverts try to arrange things so they can take time to reflect, extroverts try to meet people and do exciting things. Those are both fine and ordinary. If these intents happen to conflict, that’s for the individuals involved to resolve, not social norms.
Even though that might satisfy introverts’ dislike of conflict somewhat,
AFAICS there is no way to implement ‘don’t disturb my feelings’ into social norms without being oppressive—political correctness being an excellent example of this. Feelings may seem significant or even overwhelming, but I’ll stand by the statement that they don’t have much worth in decisions.)
Eh, I rambled. Hopefully that clarified something in someone’s mind, at least ;)
The main point I had in mind is that social receptivity is something of an exhaustible resource for introverts, something of which the book contains a number of illustrative examples. When an introvert spends time in active socialization, they’re using up the mental resources to do so with other people in the future, at least without taking a toll on their psychological, and in extreme cases physical, health.
If you suggested that given the value of socialization, people should spend more time stopping strangers in the street to hold conversations with them, and I objected that for both participants this is draining the resource of time, and that it will often not be a high value use of that resource, I suspect that you’d accept this as a reasonable objection. For introverts, social interactions such as these contain a similar resource tradeoff.
On another note, if feelings don’t have much worth in decisions, what does? What else would you want any kind of success for?
If you suggested that given the value of socialization, people should spend more time stopping strangers in the street to hold conversations with them
To be clear, I didn’t intend to suggest this at all. I was responding to the situation where you want to approach but then you think vaguely that their feelings may be disturbed by this. I’m not suggesting introverts stop strangers in the streets to talk to them, just that if people (introverted or extraverted) have already formed the intent to approach a person then they shouldn’t allow it to be derailed by vague concerns fueled by anecdotal ‘data’. I’m just trying to say “Trying to connect is ordinary, don’t accept the proposition that it’s not.”
On another note, if feelings don’t have much worth in decisions, what does? What else would you want any kind of success for?
It’s fine to enjoy good feelings—and they are often the result of living well—but unless you are extraordinarily grounded/anchored to reality, you can’t trust them as any kind of benchmark for your current or future situation. By the time your goals arrive, you’ve changed (and your feelings may well have too).
A possible exception is the feeling of discomfort, as long as you take a challenging interpretation : “I need to go there”, instead of the usual “I mustn’t go there!” interpretation. Comfort zone expansion, you probably get the idea.
In general I guess what I’m trying to point at is, any given immediate feeling is usually untrustworthy and essentially useless to pursue. Reproducible emotional trends (for example, feeling better about life when you go for a walk or run, which is well documented) and other types of mental trends (flow?, habits of thinking you have or want to have) are a much more sound basis for decisions and planning.
You still have to deal with your feelings on a moment-to-moment level, but it’s smart to treat them like children that you have to parent rather than reliable peers.
To be clear, I didn’t intend to suggest this at all. I was responding to the situation where you want to approach but then you think vaguely that their feelings may be disturbed by this. I’m not suggesting introverts stop strangers in the streets to talk to them, just that if people (introverted or extraverted) have already formed the intent to approach a person then they shouldn’t allow it to be derailed by vague concerns fueled by anecdotal ‘data’. I’m just trying to say “Trying to connect is ordinary, don’t accept the proposition that it’s not.”
This doesn’t address the point I was making at all. It’s not a matter of the action being ordinary or not, but of it costing psychological resources and not being a good return on investment for them.
In general I guess what I’m trying to point at is, any given immediate feeling is usually untrustworthy and essentially useless to pursue. Reproducible emotional trends (for example, feeling better about life when you go for a walk or run, which is well documented) and other types of mental trends (flow?, habits of thinking you have or want to have) are a much more sound basis for decisions and planning. You still have to deal with your feelings on a moment-to-moment level, but it’s smart to treat them like children that you have to parent rather than reliable peers.
This goes back to one of the points for which I made that book recommendation. Introverts can force themselves to behave in an extroverted manner in the long run, but doing so comes with an associated psychological cost. For an introvert, forcing oneself to behave in a more extroverted way as a matter of policy, rather than in select instances, is liable to produce significantly negative long term emotional trends.
For an introvert, forcing oneself to behave in a more extroverted way as a matter of policy, rather than in select instances, is liable to produce significantly negative long term emotional trends.
I’m aware of that. Since it’s not what I’m suggesting, and as far as I can see, not what anyone else is suggesting, why is that at all relevant?
If they were routinely forming the intent to approach even though it drained them, THAT would reflect a policy of forcing themselves to behave in an extroverted way. Merely making yourself carry through on an already-formed intent rather than waving it away with a sheaf of vague excuses? That’s just good mental hygiene.
OT: It seems like a good idea for extroverts to have a planned curriculum of introverted skills to develop, and vice versa for introverts. Personally I’m keenly aware that my lack in some introverted areas like reflection and planning means I’m missing out on some dimensions of life. AFAICS we need to have the -whole- skillset, not just half of it, to really live life well, and for the bits we are not naturally talented in, they take thought and planned action to achieve, hence my focus on intent.
If they were routinely forming the intent to approach even though it drained them, THAT would reflect a policy of forcing themselves to behave in an extroverted way. Merely making yourself carry through on an already-formed intent rather than waving it away with a sheaf of vague excuses? That’s just good mental hygiene.
Making yourself carry through on an already formed intent to engage in socialization in scenarios of a certain kind is a systematic increase in socialization. It’s not the formation of the intent to socialize that’s draining, it’s the actual socialization. It sounds to me like you’re trying to have things both ways, whereby introverts get to engage in extra socialization at no cost, which is just not how it works.
On the contrary, I accounted for the costs. That was the point of the final paragraph—that they have costs. If they’re important actions to take, it makes sense that they have costs. If they’re important, it makes sense that you accept those costs as necessary. [1]
If they’re not, of course, then no such acceptance, nor any action, is required. But as long as you agree (really agree, not just agree because it’s not that far off the truth, or to be nice), you will make the sacrifice. The only alternative is that they’re not actually that important to you right now, and you just believe that they are.
[1] For example, as an extrovert, reflection (particularly self-reflection) drains me, but that doesn’t mean it’s any less important for people universally to regularly, systematically reflect, just because it has that cost to me and many others. In some real sense the drainingness is much magnified by my lack of skills in the area. I don’t get to say it’s too hard just because it is hard. I can only win if I do it in spite of, or even BECAUSE it’s hard.
For example, as an extrovert, reflection (particularly self-reflection) drains me, but that doesn’t mean it’s any less important for people universally to regularly, systematically reflect, just because it has that cost to me and many others.
Speaking as an introvert, socialization drains me, but I socialize. Obviously, the costs of not doing so at all would be far greater to me than the cost of engaging in some socialization.
Suppose I told you right now, “You should triple the amount of time you spend in self reflection, because self reflection is highly valuable.” We both recognize that self reflection is highly valuable, but that doesn’t mean that I’m giving you good advice, because I’d be offering it without regard for the fact that I have no information on your cognitive limits relative to the amount of time you spend at it already.
Whatever amount of self reflection you’re currently at, I could ask you “if you really agree self reflection is important, why don’t you do it more?” Obviously there are suboptimal levels for a person to engage in, but that doesn’t mean I’m in any position to assume that you’re still at a point where adding more is worth the costs.
Yes, I had forgotten that introverts have a stronger focus on habits/routines, and so they could form intent without necessarily thinking it good in the particular instance. As someone who mostly struggles to cultivate habits, I was thinking as if intent necessarily indicates that you’ve decided applying it in this instance to be good already. So I guess I was surprised by the comparison between absolute and relative value.
Anyway I take your point about diminishing returns. I’m aware I tend to behave far too sanguine to properly consider the effect of diminishing returns, and just pick whatever seems to help me charge ahead; or to put it another way, if I don’t have an imperative it seems like I have nothing.
At least I’m aware that these effects will diminish through clear thinking.
A person can be poorly psychologically calibrated for their environment without being defective and in need of change.
Yes, they do need to change… their environment. :-)
(Generally, this can be much more easily and effectively achieved by starting to hang around different people than by trying to modify the ones they’re already hanging around with.)
“Rest of the world” meaning where? This is actually quite an abnormal action in some parts of the world, depending on how strongly the culture encourages extroversion.
Do you think that it’s similarly problematic if a person is highly discomforted by people reasoning using tribal politics and refusing to consider issues on their individual merits? It’s totally ordinary behavior, after all.
A person can be poorly psychologically calibrated for their environment without being defective and in need of change.
Most introverts actually have an easier time having deep, honest exchanges than extroverts do. They’re also less likely to agree that their lives would be improved by doing it more frequently with strangers. I’d recommend checking out this book, since it seems like you have a somewhat misaligned sense of what it implies for a person to be introverted.
I agree that approaching strangers is more frowned upon, say, in Japan. Perhaps ‘rest of the western world’ would have been a better choice of words.
You have the totally wrong sense of what I meant by ordinary. Try fitting what you said into the definition “both normal and healthy”; it doesn’t.
Defectiveness is really a subject that I’d prefer to keep out of any equation which is talking about people. Anyway, as far as I can see ‘in need of change’ holds true as long as said reaction impacts on your ability to live an effective and satisfying life. Personally my impression is that any major repression of emotions leads to personal problems (of the ‘excessively cold / unable or unwilling to relate’ kind).
People are disinclined to agree with a number of propositions that seem to hold true, particularly regarding social interactions and universal human faults. Mere disagreement doesn’t really constitute any evidence against those propositions.
I do understand, though, that introverts general preference for planned, controlled actions and everything fitting together as far as possible, would lead to disliking interaction with strangers, But as far as I can see, extroverts and introverts both need to try and balance themselves by taking on the virtues demonstrated by their opposites. I don’t regard introversion and extraversion as value neutral, rather, I regard them both as lopsided.
Sure, I’ll read that IFF you read The Successful Self. It’s certainly true that I find introverts frustrating—sometimes it seems like the world is divided into those who get it but can’t relate to me (Introverts) and those who can relate to me but don’t get it (Extraverts)*.
* (for most given values of ‘it’)
I’ll see if it’s in my library network.
Having read Quiet Power, I certainly appreciate the recommendation, as it is a fascinating book. It has helped somewhat elaborate my model of introversion/extraversion. I especially liked the chapter comparing Western and Eastern social norms and their consequences.
What it hasn’t done is told me anything surprising about introverts—all the new information fits quite well into my existing model, which I derived mainly from Dorothy Rowe’s books and conversation with a particular introvert.
So, either I have failed to realize the significance of something I read, or my model is not actually misaligned in the way you thought. Could you be specific about what problem you saw?
(on reflection, I think my whole stance on this subject is orthogonal to the idea of temperament. My perception is that most of the thread starting at my original comment can be boiled down to RalfAndreasson and SaidAchmiz asserting “Don’t try to expand your social horizons in this particular way, because it invokes strong negative reactions in me”, and my responding “No, DO try. You may need it and there are others that need it, and trying is better than not trying in general. Individual emotional reactions, whether yours or others, shouldn’t get a look in as rationales for doing or not doing things.”.
No doubt I’ve idealized the clarity of my message there, but the point is this isn’t about marginalizing introverts, it’s about not committing the error of treating feelings as any kind of strong evidence, and about the general strength of choosing to try as a policy. Introverts try to arrange things so they can take time to reflect, extroverts try to meet people and do exciting things. Those are both fine and ordinary. If these intents happen to conflict, that’s for the individuals involved to resolve, not social norms.
Even though that might satisfy introverts’ dislike of conflict somewhat, AFAICS there is no way to implement ‘don’t disturb my feelings’ into social norms without being oppressive—political correctness being an excellent example of this. Feelings may seem significant or even overwhelming, but I’ll stand by the statement that they don’t have much worth in decisions.)
Eh, I rambled. Hopefully that clarified something in someone’s mind, at least ;)
The main point I had in mind is that social receptivity is something of an exhaustible resource for introverts, something of which the book contains a number of illustrative examples. When an introvert spends time in active socialization, they’re using up the mental resources to do so with other people in the future, at least without taking a toll on their psychological, and in extreme cases physical, health.
If you suggested that given the value of socialization, people should spend more time stopping strangers in the street to hold conversations with them, and I objected that for both participants this is draining the resource of time, and that it will often not be a high value use of that resource, I suspect that you’d accept this as a reasonable objection. For introverts, social interactions such as these contain a similar resource tradeoff.
On another note, if feelings don’t have much worth in decisions, what does? What else would you want any kind of success for?
To be clear, I didn’t intend to suggest this at all. I was responding to the situation where you want to approach but then you think vaguely that their feelings may be disturbed by this. I’m not suggesting introverts stop strangers in the streets to talk to them, just that if people (introverted or extraverted) have already formed the intent to approach a person then they shouldn’t allow it to be derailed by vague concerns fueled by anecdotal ‘data’. I’m just trying to say “Trying to connect is ordinary, don’t accept the proposition that it’s not.”
It’s fine to enjoy good feelings—and they are often the result of living well—but unless you are extraordinarily grounded/anchored to reality, you can’t trust them as any kind of benchmark for your current or future situation. By the time your goals arrive, you’ve changed (and your feelings may well have too).
A possible exception is the feeling of discomfort, as long as you take a challenging interpretation : “I need to go there”, instead of the usual “I mustn’t go there!” interpretation. Comfort zone expansion, you probably get the idea.
In general I guess what I’m trying to point at is, any given immediate feeling is usually untrustworthy and essentially useless to pursue. Reproducible emotional trends (for example, feeling better about life when you go for a walk or run, which is well documented) and other types of mental trends (flow?, habits of thinking you have or want to have) are a much more sound basis for decisions and planning. You still have to deal with your feelings on a moment-to-moment level, but it’s smart to treat them like children that you have to parent rather than reliable peers.
This doesn’t address the point I was making at all. It’s not a matter of the action being ordinary or not, but of it costing psychological resources and not being a good return on investment for them.
This goes back to one of the points for which I made that book recommendation. Introverts can force themselves to behave in an extroverted manner in the long run, but doing so comes with an associated psychological cost. For an introvert, forcing oneself to behave in a more extroverted way as a matter of policy, rather than in select instances, is liable to produce significantly negative long term emotional trends.
I’m aware of that. Since it’s not what I’m suggesting, and as far as I can see, not what anyone else is suggesting, why is that at all relevant?
If they were routinely forming the intent to approach even though it drained them, THAT would reflect a policy of forcing themselves to behave in an extroverted way. Merely making yourself carry through on an already-formed intent rather than waving it away with a sheaf of vague excuses? That’s just good mental hygiene.
OT: It seems like a good idea for extroverts to have a planned curriculum of introverted skills to develop, and vice versa for introverts. Personally I’m keenly aware that my lack in some introverted areas like reflection and planning means I’m missing out on some dimensions of life. AFAICS we need to have the -whole- skillset, not just half of it, to really live life well, and for the bits we are not naturally talented in, they take thought and planned action to achieve, hence my focus on intent.
Making yourself carry through on an already formed intent to engage in socialization in scenarios of a certain kind is a systematic increase in socialization. It’s not the formation of the intent to socialize that’s draining, it’s the actual socialization. It sounds to me like you’re trying to have things both ways, whereby introverts get to engage in extra socialization at no cost, which is just not how it works.
On the contrary, I accounted for the costs. That was the point of the final paragraph—that they have costs. If they’re important actions to take, it makes sense that they have costs. If they’re important, it makes sense that you accept those costs as necessary. [1]
If they’re not, of course, then no such acceptance, nor any action, is required. But as long as you agree (really agree, not just agree because it’s not that far off the truth, or to be nice), you will make the sacrifice. The only alternative is that they’re not actually that important to you right now, and you just believe that they are.
[1] For example, as an extrovert, reflection (particularly self-reflection) drains me, but that doesn’t mean it’s any less important for people universally to regularly, systematically reflect, just because it has that cost to me and many others. In some real sense the drainingness is much magnified by my lack of skills in the area. I don’t get to say it’s too hard just because it is hard. I can only win if I do it in spite of, or even BECAUSE it’s hard.
Speaking as an introvert, socialization drains me, but I socialize. Obviously, the costs of not doing so at all would be far greater to me than the cost of engaging in some socialization.
Suppose I told you right now, “You should triple the amount of time you spend in self reflection, because self reflection is highly valuable.” We both recognize that self reflection is highly valuable, but that doesn’t mean that I’m giving you good advice, because I’d be offering it without regard for the fact that I have no information on your cognitive limits relative to the amount of time you spend at it already.
Whatever amount of self reflection you’re currently at, I could ask you “if you really agree self reflection is important, why don’t you do it more?” Obviously there are suboptimal levels for a person to engage in, but that doesn’t mean I’m in any position to assume that you’re still at a point where adding more is worth the costs.
Yes, I had forgotten that introverts have a stronger focus on habits/routines, and so they could form intent without necessarily thinking it good in the particular instance. As someone who mostly struggles to cultivate habits, I was thinking as if intent necessarily indicates that you’ve decided applying it in this instance to be good already. So I guess I was surprised by the comparison between absolute and relative value.
Anyway I take your point about diminishing returns. I’m aware I tend to behave far too sanguine to properly consider the effect of diminishing returns, and just pick whatever seems to help me charge ahead; or to put it another way, if I don’t have an imperative it seems like I have nothing.
At least I’m aware that these effects will diminish through clear thinking.
Thanks for your patience.
Yes, they do need to change… their environment. :-)
(Generally, this can be much more easily and effectively achieved by starting to hang around different people than by trying to modify the ones they’re already hanging around with.)