In reality, the situation is more like “NTs v non-NTs”, and you are speaking for the non-NT part of the population.
Perhaps. Would you agree that there is much heavier overlap between “NT” and “extrovert”, and “non-NT” and “introvert”, than vice versa?
The same way you say half the population shouldn’t force their preferences on the other half, I’m sure you can agree that 5% of the population shouldn’t force their preferences (of non-interaction) onto the other 95%.
“half the population shouldn’t force their preferences on the other half” is an inaccurate generalization of what I said; my claims were far more specific. As such, no, I can’t agree the 95% / 5% thing. The point is that it depends on the preference in question. You shouldn’t force your desire to interact with me on me; conversely, it seems perfectly ok for me to “force” my desire not to interact with you, on you. The situation is not symmetric. It is analogous to “why are you forcing your preference not to get punched in the face on me?!”
Actionable advice [...]
First, I’d like to say thank you for bothering to include concrete advice. This is a practice I endorse. (In this case, the specific advice provided was known to me, but the thought is a good one.)
That said, it is my experience that the kind of people who force interactions on strangers very often ignore such relatively subtle hints (or consider them rude if they notice them at all).
The point is that it depends on the preference in question. You shouldn’t force your desire to interact with me on me; conversely, it seems perfectly ok for me to “force” my desire not to interact with you, on you.
The problem here is that this is a difference between saying ‘you can do this’ and saying ‘you can’t do this / I have a right to be left alone’.
You CAN arrange to be left alone. I CAN notice some genuine, reliable cue that you want to be left alone, and leave you alone. I CAN attempt to interact with you. You CAN reject that attempt (either rudely or with some tact). As soon as you get into saying what you CAN’T do or what I CAN’T do, that shows that you’ve stopped trying to genuinely support your own position and switched to attacking the opposing position. As far as I can see, that is inherently a losing game, just like the way hatred and revenge are losing games.
(and no, it is not, in any way, comparable to preferring not to be punched in the face. More comparable to preferring not to exercise, or perhaps preferring not to vote.)
I… don’t really understand what you’re saying here, I’m afraid. I’m having trouble reading your comment (the parts about “can” and “can’t” and such) as a response to what I said rather than a non sequitur. Would you mind rephrasing, or...?
that shows that you’ve stopped trying to genuinely support your own position and switched to attacking the opposing position.
Huh? I was making an “ought” statement. Supporting one’s own position and attacking the opposing position are the same thing when only one position could be the right one.
and no, it is not, in any way, comparable to preferring not to be punched in the face. More comparable to preferring not to exercise, or perhaps preferring not to vote.
Those analogies don’t make any sense. Consider: in the “punch in face” case, we have:
Alice: Wants to punch Bob in the face. Bob: Doesn’t want to be punched in the face.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied and Bob does not; Alice’s preferences (to punch Bob) are forced upon Bob, causing Bob to experience preference non-satisfaction. If we support Bob, then vice versa; Bob’s preferences (to not be punched by Alice) are forced upon Alice, causing Alice to experience preference non-satisfaction. (Generally, we support Bob in such a case.)
The “exercise” or “vote” case bears no resemblance to this. In both cases, we simply have:
Alice: Doesn’t want to vote.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied. There is no Bob here. There is also no dilemma of any kind. Obviously we should support Alice, because there is no reason not to. (Unless we hate Alice and want her to experience preference non-satisfaction, for some reason.)
The “interact with strangers” case is isomorphic to the “punch in face” case, like so:
Alice: Wants to interact with Bob (i.e. wants to introduce herself to Bob who is her seat-neighbor on a plane). Bob: Doesn’t want to be interacted with.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied and Bob does not; Alice’s preferences (to interact with Bob) are forced upon Bob, causing Bob to experience preference non-satisfaction. If we support Bob, then vice versa; Bob’s preferences (to not be interacted with) are forced upon Alice, causing Alice to experience preference non-satisfaction.
Supporting Alice in the “interact with strangers” case is a little like saying, in the “punch in face” case: “Yeah, well, if Bob doesn’t want to be punched, then he ought to just block when I throw a right hook at his face. I’ll get the hint, I promise!”
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied. There is no Bob here. There is also no dilemma of any kind. Obviously we should support Alice, because there is no reason not to. (Unless we hate Alice and want her to experience preference non-satisfaction, for some reason.)
False. Even if all things considered you prefer that Alice not be compelled to vote there are reasons to do so. Voting is a commons problem. Compulsory voting (or, “compulsory attendence of the voting booth at which point you can submit a valid vote or not as you please”) can be considered analogous to taxation, and happens to be paid in time (approximately non-fungibly). If a country happens to get adequate voting outcomes purely from volunteers then that may be a desirable policy all things considered. However, compelling people to vote does not imply sadism. Merely a different solution to said commons problem.
Yes, I considered this objection, thank you for bringing it up. Upon consideration, it seems to me that “compulsory attendance of the voting booth”, while probably not literally inspired by actual sadism, is perverse to the point of being indistinguishable from sadism.
If a country gets “inadequate voting outcomes” (what does that mean, exactly?) from volunteer-only voting, compelling people to vote seems to be exactly the wrong solution for many reasons. (Voting is a “commons problem” to the extent that it is a problem — but it’s not clear to me that “few eligible voters are actually voting” is, in fact, a problem.)
However, the more relevant-to-the-conversation response is that “society’s” interests in this case are far too diffuse and theoretical to serve as any kind of relevant analogue to the case of “one very specific person (i.e. Bob) doesn’t want unpleasant experiences inflicted upon him”. That’s what makes it a poor analogy.
Upon consideration, it seems to me that “compulsory attendance of the voting booth”, while probably not literally inspired by actual sadism, is perverse to the point of being indistinguishable from sadism.
Avoid inflationary use of terms. “Sadistic” does not mean “a policy that I disapprove of”. Being unable to distinguish the two is a failure of your own comprehension, nothing more.
If a country gets “inadequate voting outcomes” (what does that mean, exactly?)
That means that the writer refrained from prescribing preferences to outcomes or making any claims about the merit of any particular election and left it to the readers judgement. Some examples of things that could be inadequate would include too few people voting, if the selection bias of only aggregating the preferences of people who have nothing better to do at the time than voting rather than the preferences of everyone resulted in inferior candidates or if the psychological impact of the practice is somehow sub-par.
However, the more relevant-to-the-conversation response is that “society’s” interests in this case are far too diffuse and theoretical to serve as any kind of relevant analogue to the case of “one very specific person (i.e. Bob) doesn’t want unpleasant experiences inflicted upon him”. That’s what makes it a poor analogy.
You are proposing a general cultural rule for how people must behave (don’t introduce yourself to strangers on planes) for the benefit of Bob. This amounts to a large cost in lost opportunity and freedom that is paid by the people you consider “too diffuse and theoretical” to deserve consideration to suit the convenience of Bob who is important enough for you to make up a name for him. All the other people who have Bob’s particular psychological disorder presumably warrant your consideration despite being diffuse and theoretical.
(And by ‘psychological disorder’ I refer to whatever condition results in Bob taking damage equivalent to the physical and psychological damage most people take from being punched in the face.)
Avoid inflationary use of terms. “Sadistic” does not mean “a policy that I disapprove of”. Being unable to distinguish the two is a failure of your own comprehension, nothing more.
I assure you, that was not an inflationary use on my part. I meant precisely what I said.
You are proposing a general cultural rule for how people must behave (don’t introduce yourself to strangers on planes) for the benefit of Bob. This amounts to a large cost in lost opportunity and freedom that is paid by the people you consider “too diffuse and theoretical” to deserve consideration to suit the convenience of Bob who is important enough for you to make up a name for him. All the other people who have Bob’s particular psychological disorder presumably warrant your consideration despite being diffuse and theoretical.
You misread me, I think… the cost in lost opportunity and freedom in the “interact with strangers” case, just as in the “punch in face” case, is paid by a very concrete person: Alice. She is certainly neither diffuse nor theoretical. I specifically commented on her preferences, and the satisfaction or non-satisfaction thereof.
What is too diffuse and theoretical is “society’s” interests in the “vote” case. That is why the “vote” case makes a poor analogy for the “interact with strangers” case.
I assure you, that was not an inflationary use on my part. I meant precisely what I said.
I’ll repeat with emphasis that being unable to distinguish between a policy decision that you disapprove of and sadism is a significant failure in comprehension. It is enough to make whatever opinions you may express about what social norms should be lose any hope of credibility.
There is, however, also a difference between lack of comprehension and disagreement, which you seem to not be recognizing. There are plenty of policies that I disapprove of without considering them to be sadistic. Also: “perverse to the point of being indistinguishable from sadism” does not mean “I actually think this policy was motivated by sadism” (a distinction to which I alluded in the post where I made this comment). In general, I think you are reading me quite uncharitably here.
Non-compulsory voting has the disadvantage that certain people will refrain from voting just because of the inconvenience of going to the voting booth and others won’t, which may bias the result of the election if the extent to which voting would be inconvenient correlates with political positions for whatever reasons.
tl;dr:
“CAN” is about a person’s ability or capability. This helps them to take responsibility
“CAN’T” is about what you(or society) can prevent them from doing. This helps them evade responsibility.
BTW, there is a Bob. Bob is society in the voting case and .. well, if you think about it, also society in the exercise case (but ‘the part of you that values wellbeing over comfort’ would also qualify there).
tl;dr: “CAN” is about a person’s ability or capability. This helps them to take responsibility “CAN’T” is about what you(or society) can prevent them from doing. This helps them evade responsibility.
I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. :(
BTW, there is a Bob. Bob is society in the voting case and .. well, if you think about it, also society in the exercise case (but ‘the part of you that values wellbeing over comfort’ would also qualify there).
“Society” can’t have rights, nor can “society” have preferences, or the satisfactions or non-satisfactions thereof. There is no good but the good of individuals; there is no harm but the harm to individuals.
The idea that “society” has rights, or that “society” can be benefited or harmed, independently from the good or harm to any individuals, is one of the most destructive ideas in human history.
As for ‘the part of you that values wellbeing over comfort’ … rights do not accrue to internal aspects of self. “Rights” are about interpersonal morality. (But actually I would prefer we not go off on this particular tangent here, if that’s ok; it’s rather off-topic.)
The idea that “society” has rights, or that “society” can be benefited or harmed, independently from the good or harm to any individuals, is one of the most destructive ideas in human history.
Sure, savageorange could have found a telephone book and tried listing everyone individually. But saying ‘society’ seems more efficient. It refers tot he case where many unnamed but clearly existing individuals who need not or can not be named would be harmed.
Yes, that’s the implied assumption, but it’s usually a way to mask the fact that were we to try and find any actual, specific individuals who are concretely benefited or harmed by whatever-it-is, we would have quite the hard time doing so.
Perhaps. Would you agree that there is much heavier overlap between “NT” and “extrovert”, and “non-NT” and “introvert”, than vice versa?
“half the population shouldn’t force their preferences on the other half” is an inaccurate generalization of what I said; my claims were far more specific. As such, no, I can’t agree the 95% / 5% thing. The point is that it depends on the preference in question. You shouldn’t force your desire to interact with me on me; conversely, it seems perfectly ok for me to “force” my desire not to interact with you, on you. The situation is not symmetric. It is analogous to “why are you forcing your preference not to get punched in the face on me?!”
First, I’d like to say thank you for bothering to include concrete advice. This is a practice I endorse. (In this case, the specific advice provided was known to me, but the thought is a good one.)
That said, it is my experience that the kind of people who force interactions on strangers very often ignore such relatively subtle hints (or consider them rude if they notice them at all).
The problem here is that this is a difference between saying ‘you can do this’ and saying ‘you can’t do this / I have a right to be left alone’.
You CAN arrange to be left alone. I CAN notice some genuine, reliable cue that you want to be left alone, and leave you alone. I CAN attempt to interact with you. You CAN reject that attempt (either rudely or with some tact). As soon as you get into saying what you CAN’T do or what I CAN’T do, that shows that you’ve stopped trying to genuinely support your own position and switched to attacking the opposing position. As far as I can see, that is inherently a losing game, just like the way hatred and revenge are losing games.
(and no, it is not, in any way, comparable to preferring not to be punched in the face. More comparable to preferring not to exercise, or perhaps preferring not to vote.)
Note that certain polities have compulsory voting and others don’t.
I… don’t really understand what you’re saying here, I’m afraid. I’m having trouble reading your comment (the parts about “can” and “can’t” and such) as a response to what I said rather than a non sequitur. Would you mind rephrasing, or...?
Huh? I was making an “ought” statement. Supporting one’s own position and attacking the opposing position are the same thing when only one position could be the right one.
Those analogies don’t make any sense. Consider: in the “punch in face” case, we have:
Alice: Wants to punch Bob in the face.
Bob: Doesn’t want to be punched in the face.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied and Bob does not; Alice’s preferences (to punch Bob) are forced upon Bob, causing Bob to experience preference non-satisfaction. If we support Bob, then vice versa; Bob’s preferences (to not be punched by Alice) are forced upon Alice, causing Alice to experience preference non-satisfaction. (Generally, we support Bob in such a case.)
The “exercise” or “vote” case bears no resemblance to this. In both cases, we simply have:
Alice: Doesn’t want to vote.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied. There is no Bob here. There is also no dilemma of any kind. Obviously we should support Alice, because there is no reason not to. (Unless we hate Alice and want her to experience preference non-satisfaction, for some reason.)
The “interact with strangers” case is isomorphic to the “punch in face” case, like so:
Alice: Wants to interact with Bob (i.e. wants to introduce herself to Bob who is her seat-neighbor on a plane).
Bob: Doesn’t want to be interacted with.
If we support Alice, then Alice has her preferences satisfied and Bob does not; Alice’s preferences (to interact with Bob) are forced upon Bob, causing Bob to experience preference non-satisfaction. If we support Bob, then vice versa; Bob’s preferences (to not be interacted with) are forced upon Alice, causing Alice to experience preference non-satisfaction.
Supporting Alice in the “interact with strangers” case is a little like saying, in the “punch in face” case: “Yeah, well, if Bob doesn’t want to be punched, then he ought to just block when I throw a right hook at his face. I’ll get the hint, I promise!”
False. Even if all things considered you prefer that Alice not be compelled to vote there are reasons to do so. Voting is a commons problem. Compulsory voting (or, “compulsory attendence of the voting booth at which point you can submit a valid vote or not as you please”) can be considered analogous to taxation, and happens to be paid in time (approximately non-fungibly). If a country happens to get adequate voting outcomes purely from volunteers then that may be a desirable policy all things considered. However, compelling people to vote does not imply sadism. Merely a different solution to said commons problem.
Yes, I considered this objection, thank you for bringing it up. Upon consideration, it seems to me that “compulsory attendance of the voting booth”, while probably not literally inspired by actual sadism, is perverse to the point of being indistinguishable from sadism.
If a country gets “inadequate voting outcomes” (what does that mean, exactly?) from volunteer-only voting, compelling people to vote seems to be exactly the wrong solution for many reasons. (Voting is a “commons problem” to the extent that it is a problem — but it’s not clear to me that “few eligible voters are actually voting” is, in fact, a problem.)
However, the more relevant-to-the-conversation response is that “society’s” interests in this case are far too diffuse and theoretical to serve as any kind of relevant analogue to the case of “one very specific person (i.e. Bob) doesn’t want unpleasant experiences inflicted upon him”. That’s what makes it a poor analogy.
Avoid inflationary use of terms. “Sadistic” does not mean “a policy that I disapprove of”. Being unable to distinguish the two is a failure of your own comprehension, nothing more.
That means that the writer refrained from prescribing preferences to outcomes or making any claims about the merit of any particular election and left it to the readers judgement. Some examples of things that could be inadequate would include too few people voting, if the selection bias of only aggregating the preferences of people who have nothing better to do at the time than voting rather than the preferences of everyone resulted in inferior candidates or if the psychological impact of the practice is somehow sub-par.
You are proposing a general cultural rule for how people must behave (don’t introduce yourself to strangers on planes) for the benefit of Bob. This amounts to a large cost in lost opportunity and freedom that is paid by the people you consider “too diffuse and theoretical” to deserve consideration to suit the convenience of Bob who is important enough for you to make up a name for him. All the other people who have Bob’s particular psychological disorder presumably warrant your consideration despite being diffuse and theoretical.
(And by ‘psychological disorder’ I refer to whatever condition results in Bob taking damage equivalent to the physical and psychological damage most people take from being punched in the face.)
I assure you, that was not an inflationary use on my part. I meant precisely what I said.
You misread me, I think… the cost in lost opportunity and freedom in the “interact with strangers” case, just as in the “punch in face” case, is paid by a very concrete person: Alice. She is certainly neither diffuse nor theoretical. I specifically commented on her preferences, and the satisfaction or non-satisfaction thereof.
What is too diffuse and theoretical is “society’s” interests in the “vote” case. That is why the “vote” case makes a poor analogy for the “interact with strangers” case.
I’ll repeat with emphasis that being unable to distinguish between a policy decision that you disapprove of and sadism is a significant failure in comprehension. It is enough to make whatever opinions you may express about what social norms should be lose any hope of credibility.
There is, however, also a difference between lack of comprehension and disagreement, which you seem to not be recognizing. There are plenty of policies that I disapprove of without considering them to be sadistic. Also: “perverse to the point of being indistinguishable from sadism” does not mean “I actually think this policy was motivated by sadism” (a distinction to which I alluded in the post where I made this comment). In general, I think you are reading me quite uncharitably here.
Non-compulsory voting has the disadvantage that certain people will refrain from voting just because of the inconvenience of going to the voting booth and others won’t, which may bias the result of the election if the extent to which voting would be inconvenient correlates with political positions for whatever reasons.
tl;dr: “CAN” is about a person’s ability or capability. This helps them to take responsibility “CAN’T” is about what you(or society) can prevent them from doing. This helps them evade responsibility.
BTW, there is a Bob. Bob is society in the voting case and .. well, if you think about it, also society in the exercise case (but ‘the part of you that values wellbeing over comfort’ would also qualify there).
I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. :(
“Society” can’t have rights, nor can “society” have preferences, or the satisfactions or non-satisfactions thereof. There is no good but the good of individuals; there is no harm but the harm to individuals.
The idea that “society” has rights, or that “society” can be benefited or harmed, independently from the good or harm to any individuals, is one of the most destructive ideas in human history.
As for ‘the part of you that values wellbeing over comfort’ … rights do not accrue to internal aspects of self. “Rights” are about interpersonal morality. (But actually I would prefer we not go off on this particular tangent here, if that’s ok; it’s rather off-topic.)
Sure, savageorange could have found a telephone book and tried listing everyone individually. But saying ‘society’ seems more efficient. It refers tot he case where many unnamed but clearly existing individuals who need not or can not be named would be harmed.
Yes, that’s the implied assumption, but it’s usually a way to mask the fact that were we to try and find any actual, specific individuals who are concretely benefited or harmed by whatever-it-is, we would have quite the hard time doing so.