I assume you mean to include ‘all’ in there. Some pickup practitioners (and pickup strategies) do use lies and manipulation without consideration of whether the outcome is desirable (and the means appropriate.) That is a legitimate concern. It would certainly not be reasonable to assert this is the norm, which you didn’t make clear in your declaration of repeated assertion.
In context, I was responding to a generalization with a counter based on exceptions to a proposed rule. I agree there is variety within the pickup community. I disagree that it is uniformly a force for good—and thus that opposition to it is based on dislike for science.
Here it is important not to beware of other optimising. For the average Joe and Jane a courtship protocol that involves attacking each other’s self esteem would just be obnoxious and unpleasant. [...]
You’re right. I meant to indicate the case of attacking someone’s self-esteem in order to make them feel bad (and become pliable), rather than to engage them in a duel of wits.
You collectively? Exactly which collective are you referring to here?
The posters on lesswrong who claim that opposition to pickup on lesswrong is due to women being uncomfortable with explicit analysis of social reality, or (relatedly) that pickup is a uniformly altruistic enterprise (wrt sexual partners).
It’s only a judgment on a collective because it’s a judgment on a position, and the collective is people who hold that position.
You’re right. I meant to indicate the case of attacking someone’s self-esteem in order to make them feel bad (and become pliable), rather than to engage them in a duel of wits.
No, I don’t mean duels of wits in that sense. I really do refer to the case of attacking someone’s self esteem to make them become pliable. Not bad per se (that doesn’t help), but less secure and less confident and in general that which is lowering self esteem. The judgement you make of all instances of that behaviour is actually narrowminded in as much as enforcing the judgement would worsen the experiences of life of a whole class of people. And I do not refer to a class denominated by sex.
The posters on lesswrong who claim that opposition to pickup on lesswrong is due to women being uncomfortable with explicit analysis of social reality,
or (relatedly) that pickup is a uniformly altruistic enterprise (wrt sexual partners).
Everyone who does make the claim that pickup is uniformly altruistic is clearly and obviously mistaken. And can look forward to a world of disappointment when they realise their fairytale ideas about romance are absurdly naive. Most people learn the hard way during their teens. (Although nerds tend to take longer on average.)
In context, I was responding to a generalization with a counter based on exceptions to a proposed rule. I agree there is variety within the pickup community. I disagree that it is uniformly a force for good—and thus that opposition to it is based on dislike for science.
You’re right. I meant to indicate the case of attacking someone’s self-esteem in order to make them feel bad (and become pliable), rather than to engage them in a duel of wits.
The posters on lesswrong who claim that opposition to pickup on lesswrong is due to women being uncomfortable with explicit analysis of social reality, or (relatedly) that pickup is a uniformly altruistic enterprise (wrt sexual partners).
It’s only a judgment on a collective because it’s a judgment on a position, and the collective is people who hold that position.
No, I don’t mean duels of wits in that sense. I really do refer to the case of attacking someone’s self esteem to make them become pliable. Not bad per se (that doesn’t help), but less secure and less confident and in general that which is lowering self esteem. The judgement you make of all instances of that behaviour is actually narrowminded in as much as enforcing the judgement would worsen the experiences of life of a whole class of people. And I do not refer to a class denominated by sex.
I am expressing myself poorly, I think. I believe I am familiar with the type of interaction you are describing, and agree that it is not ‘bad’.
Everyone who does make the claim that pickup is uniformly altruistic is clearly and obviously mistaken. And can look forward to a world of disappointment when they realise their fairytale ideas about romance are absurdly naive. Most people learn the hard way during their teens. (Although nerds tend to take longer on average.)