Just to clarify, who has said that this is the only reason that some people may be uncomfortable with pickup?
Um… you did. See the comment that I originally replied to. I quote:
Many of the common criticisms of pickup demonstrate an anger against the use of rationality and scientific thinking in the supposedly sacred and mystical area of sex and romance.
and also
I’ve been trying to figure out what people actually mean by “manipulation” on LW, and the ethical theory behind it, but I haven’t had much success.
Well, in response to one of cousin_it’s comments, I’ve given my own definition:
“deliberately doing something with the intent to hurt a person (without their consent) and thereby to gain advantage over them”
It’s pretty clear cut what does and does not count as “unethical” here.
Furthermore, I feel that some behaviors get tagged as “manipulation” when they are analogous to other behaviors that are considered ethical: it’s just that people are accustomed to one, and not the other.
Can you give me some examples of these behaviours?
Please note: I am quite interested in a lot of the analysis-side of PUA—I am totally unopposed to guys gaining more confidence, understanding and social skill—especially through analysis of what actually makes women happy and how guys can go about gaining it. I just don’t like the Dark Arts parts of it. I think it can be performed with win-win in mind. No manipulation necessary.
I’d love to hear the opposite side too. Is there an equivalent PUA community for women? if not—why not?
What I am resisting here is the notion, repeated several times in the LW PUA discussion, that the only reason people (or, alternately, women) are uncomfortable with PUA is discomfort with applying analysis to sex and romance.
Just to clarify, who has said that this is the only reason that some people may be uncomfortable with pickup?
Um… you did. See the comment that I originally replied to. I quote:
Many of the common criticisms of pickup demonstrate an anger against the use of rationality and scientific thinking in the supposedly sacred and mystical area of sex and romance.
(emphasis added)
That comment does not state that it is the only reason some people are uncomfortable with pickup—rather, it says that it is demonstrated in many of the common criticisms, which is quite different.
ETA: BTW, that’s an American ‘quite’ - I meant “which is very different”.
Ok I’ll restate the actual point that I believe CuSithBell was trying to make:
What I am resisting here is the notion, repeated several times in the LW PUA discussion, that the main reason people (or, alternately, women) are uncomfortable with PUA is discomfort with applying analysis to sex and romance.
Emphasis added to make the point.
And I might point out that I feel it’s a case of Logical Rudeness (on the part of HughRistik) to jump on the single word “only” and totally ignore the rest of the point being made here. Which is why I countered with a quote directly from his own previous comment.
When you use a word like ‘only’, you’re inviting that sort of interpretation. I read your statement and it seemed like you meant it literally, that is, “I’m resisting the interpretation that there are not other reasons at all...”, and I read the response as confused because nobody said anything about there being no other reasons.
Even if HughRistik was being in some way uncharitable, I fail to see how it’s an instance of Logical Rudeness, as it was a matter of correctly parsing your statement, rather than changing his position in the middle of an argument.
Whether somebody says “only” or says “mainly” shouldn’t matter too much, if the main point is actually something else entirely. In this case—the main point was about “what it is that upsets people about PUA”, not whether it’s the main point, or the only point that upsets people.
From my reading of CuSithBell’s comment—I think she said “only” but probably meant “mainly”—and thus jumping on the word “only” makes HughRistik’s comment seem like he was jumping on a side-point to avoid the main issue
Yes, on this site, using “only” to mean “mainly” opens you up to the kind of jumping-on that is common on this site… but I believe Logical Rudeness includes the situation where you jump onto a side-point at the expense of the main point. That’s why I mentioned it.
That said, I totally believe that we all should use the more correct word. If CuSithBell really meant “mainly” instead of “only” then that’s what she should have said to be more precise.
I restated and re-worded what she said because what I am most interested in is exactly what she said… with only one word of difference that does not (in my view) change anything from the Main Point.
Because they are busy being feminists instead? (But more serious factors are the relative ease at finding a willing mate and qualitatively different consequences for being a poor player at the social game.)
Um… you did. See the comment that I originally replied to. I quote:
and also
Well, in response to one of cousin_it’s comments, I’ve given my own definition:
It’s pretty clear cut what does and does not count as “unethical” here.
Can you give me some examples of these behaviours?
Please note: I am quite interested in a lot of the analysis-side of PUA—I am totally unopposed to guys gaining more confidence, understanding and social skill—especially through analysis of what actually makes women happy and how guys can go about gaining it. I just don’t like the Dark Arts parts of it. I think it can be performed with win-win in mind. No manipulation necessary.
I’d love to hear the opposite side too. Is there an equivalent PUA community for women? if not—why not?
Jumping in here, this is not correct:
(emphasis added)
That comment does not state that it is the only reason some people are uncomfortable with pickup—rather, it says that it is demonstrated in many of the common criticisms, which is quite different.
ETA: BTW, that’s an American ‘quite’ - I meant “which is very different”.
Thanks, thomblake, you got it.
Ok I’ll restate the actual point that I believe CuSithBell was trying to make:
Emphasis added to make the point.
And I might point out that I feel it’s a case of Logical Rudeness (on the part of HughRistik) to jump on the single word “only” and totally ignore the rest of the point being made here. Which is why I countered with a quote directly from his own previous comment.
When you use a word like ‘only’, you’re inviting that sort of interpretation. I read your statement and it seemed like you meant it literally, that is, “I’m resisting the interpretation that there are not other reasons at all...”, and I read the response as confused because nobody said anything about there being no other reasons.
Even if HughRistik was being in some way uncharitable, I fail to see how it’s an instance of Logical Rudeness, as it was a matter of correctly parsing your statement, rather than changing his position in the middle of an argument.
Whether somebody says “only” or says “mainly” shouldn’t matter too much, if the main point is actually something else entirely. In this case—the main point was about “what it is that upsets people about PUA”, not whether it’s the main point, or the only point that upsets people.
From my reading of CuSithBell’s comment—I think she said “only” but probably meant “mainly”—and thus jumping on the word “only” makes HughRistik’s comment seem like he was jumping on a side-point to avoid the main issue
Yes, on this site, using “only” to mean “mainly” opens you up to the kind of jumping-on that is common on this site… but I believe Logical Rudeness includes the situation where you jump onto a side-point at the expense of the main point. That’s why I mentioned it.
That said, I totally believe that we all should use the more correct word. If CuSithBell really meant “mainly” instead of “only” then that’s what she should have said to be more precise.
I restated and re-worded what she said because what I am most interested in is exactly what she said… with only one word of difference that does not (in my view) change anything from the Main Point.
See HughRistik’s comment regarding the Playettes.
Because they are busy being feminists instead? (But more serious factors are the relative ease at finding a willing mate and qualitatively different consequences for being a poor player at the social game.)