I’ve given a definition/criterion like eight times in this thread include two comments up :-).
Sorry, I should have looked first.
The modern Platonist generally has a criteria along the lines of “If and only if an entity is quantified over by our best scientific theories then it exists.” Since our best scientific theories quantify over abstract objects the modern Platonist concludes that abstract objects exist.
Ah, I see. How is it different from “we define stuff we think about that is not found in nature as “abstract”″?
To say “the number the 3 is prime” implies 3 exists just as “some birds can fly” implies birds exist.
I guess that’s where I am having problems with this approach. “Number 3 is prime” is a well-formed string in a suitable mathematical model, whereas “some birds can fly” is an observation about external world. Basically, it seems to me that the term “exist” is redundant in it. Everything you can talk about “exists” in Platonism, so the term is devoid of meaningful content.
Hmm, where do pink unicorns exist? Not in the external world, so somewhere in the internal world then? Or do they not exist at all? Then what definition of existence do they fail? For example, “our best scientific theories” imply that people can think about pink unicorns as if they were experimental facts. Thus they must exist in our imagination. Which seems uncontroversial, but vacuous and useless.
I don’t think the hypothesis that there is an independent conscious person existing along with you in your mind (or whatever those people think they’re doing) is the best explanation for the experiences they’re describing. If they just want to use it as shorthand for a set of narratively consistent hallucination then I suppose I could be okay with saying a tulpa exists. But either way: I don’t think a tulpa is an abstract object. It’s a mental object like an imaginary friend or a hallucination. Like any entity, I think the test for existence is how it figures in scientific explanation but I think Platonists and non-Platonists are logically free to admit or deny tulpas existence.
Really? The ‘existence’ status of that kind of mental entity seems to be an orthogonal issue to what (I am guessing) you mean by Tegmarkian considerations.
Tegmarkia includes every possible arrangement of physical law, including forms of psycho-phsycial parallelism whereby what is thought automatically becomes real.
Ah, fair point. I went too far. Still, I’m dubious about conflating the logical and the physical definition of existence. But hey, go wild, it’s of no consequence.
Have you noticed that, although you and Jack have completely opposite (minimal and maxima) ontologies, you both have the same motivation, of avoiding “philosophising”. Well, I suppose “everything exists” and “nothing exists” both impose minimal cognitive burden—if you believe some non -trivial subset exists, you have to put effort into populating it.
I haven’t noticed that Jack has a motivation of “avoiding philosophizing”. And I don’t say that “nothing exists”, I just avoid the term as mostly vacuous, except in specific narrow cases, like math.
I would say pink unicorns do not exist at all. The term, for me, describes a concrete entity that does not exist. “The Unicorn” could be type-language, which are abstract objects—like “the Indian Elephant” or “The Higgs Boson” but unlike the Indian Elephant the Unicorn is not something quantified over in zoology and it is hard to think of a useful scientific process which would ever involve an ontological commitment to unicorns (aside from studying the mythology of unicorns which is clearly something quite different). “3 is prime” is a well-formed string in a suitable mathematical model—which is to say a system of manipulating symbols. But this particular method of symbol manipulation is utterly essential to the scientific enterprise and it is trivial to construct methods of symbol manipulation that are not.
Our best scientific theories imply that people can think about pink unicorns as if they were experimental facts. So thoughts about pink unicorns certainly exist. It may also be the case the unicorns possibly exist. But our best scientific theories certainly do not imply the actual existence of unicorns. So pink unicorns do not exist (bracketing modal concerns).
How is it different from “we define stuff we think about that is not found in nature as “abstract”″?
So to conclude: it’s different in that the criterion for existence requires that the entity actually figures in scientific explanation, in our accurate model of the universe, not simply that it is something we can think about.
So, if a theory of pink unicorns was useful to construct an “accurate model of the universe” (presumably not including the part of the universe that is you and me discussing pink unicorns?) these imaginary creatures would be as real as imaginary numbers?
A lot of lifting is being done by “scientific” here. It’s uncontroversial that scientific theories have to be about the real world in some sense, but it doesn’t follow from that that every term mentioned in them successfully refers to something real.
Sorry, I should have looked first.
Ah, I see. How is it different from “we define stuff we think about that is not found in nature as “abstract”″?
I guess that’s where I am having problems with this approach. “Number 3 is prime” is a well-formed string in a suitable mathematical model, whereas “some birds can fly” is an observation about external world. Basically, it seems to me that the term “exist” is redundant in it. Everything you can talk about “exists” in Platonism, so the term is devoid of meaningful content.
Hmm, where do pink unicorns exist? Not in the external world, so somewhere in the internal world then? Or do they not exist at all? Then what definition of existence do they fail? For example, “our best scientific theories” imply that people can think about pink unicorns as if they were experimental facts. Thus they must exist in our imagination. Which seems uncontroversial, but vacuous and useless.
I can talk about a Highest Prime. Specifically, I can say it doesn’t exist.
Would a Platonist think that a tulpa exists?
I don’t think the hypothesis that there is an independent conscious person existing along with you in your mind (or whatever those people think they’re doing) is the best explanation for the experiences they’re describing. If they just want to use it as shorthand for a set of narratively consistent hallucination then I suppose I could be okay with saying a tulpa exists. But either way: I don’t think a tulpa is an abstract object. It’s a mental object like an imaginary friend or a hallucination. Like any entity, I think the test for existence is how it figures in scientific explanation but I think Platonists and non-Platonists are logically free to admit or deny tulpas existence.
A Tegmarkian would.
Really? The ‘existence’ status of that kind of mental entity seems to be an orthogonal issue to what (I am guessing) you mean by Tegmarkian considerations.
Tegmarkia includes every possible arrangement of physical law, including forms of psycho-phsycial parallelism whereby what is thought automatically becomes real.
Ah, fair point. I went too far. Still, I’m dubious about conflating the logical and the physical definition of existence. But hey, go wild, it’s of no consequence.
Have you noticed that, although you and Jack have completely opposite (minimal and maxima) ontologies, you both have the same motivation, of avoiding “philosophising”. Well, I suppose “everything exists” and “nothing exists” both impose minimal cognitive burden—if you believe some non -trivial subset exists, you have to put effort into populating it.
I haven’t noticed that Jack has a motivation of “avoiding philosophizing”. And I don’t say that “nothing exists”, I just avoid the term as mostly vacuous, except in specific narrow cases, like math.
I would say pink unicorns do not exist at all. The term, for me, describes a concrete entity that does not exist. “The Unicorn” could be type-language, which are abstract objects—like “the Indian Elephant” or “The Higgs Boson” but unlike the Indian Elephant the Unicorn is not something quantified over in zoology and it is hard to think of a useful scientific process which would ever involve an ontological commitment to unicorns (aside from studying the mythology of unicorns which is clearly something quite different). “3 is prime” is a well-formed string in a suitable mathematical model—which is to say a system of manipulating symbols. But this particular method of symbol manipulation is utterly essential to the scientific enterprise and it is trivial to construct methods of symbol manipulation that are not.
Our best scientific theories imply that people can think about pink unicorns as if they were experimental facts. So thoughts about pink unicorns certainly exist. It may also be the case the unicorns possibly exist. But our best scientific theories certainly do not imply the actual existence of unicorns. So pink unicorns do not exist (bracketing modal concerns).
So to conclude: it’s different in that the criterion for existence requires that the entity actually figures in scientific explanation, in our accurate model of the universe, not simply that it is something we can think about.
So, if a theory of pink unicorns was useful to construct an “accurate model of the universe” (presumably not including the part of the universe that is you and me discussing pink unicorns?) these imaginary creatures would be as real as imaginary numbers?
Sure! Another way of saying that: If we discovered pink unicorns on another planet they would be as real as imaginary numbers.
A lot of lifting is being done by “scientific” here. It’s uncontroversial that scientific theories have to be about the real world in some sense, but it doesn’t follow from that that every term mentioned in them successfully refers to something real.