The problem is using actions to infer terminal values. In order to determine your terminal values, you have to think about them; reflect on them. Probably a lot. So in order for the actions of a person to be a reliable indicator of her terminal values, she must have done some reflecting on what she actually values. For most people, this hasn’t happened.
I disagree. People who believe they have thought about their terminal values are often the most confused about what they actually value. Human values as judged by observing how people act rather than by what they claim to think are more self-consistent and more universal than the values professed by people who think they have discovered their own terminal values through reflection. Your conscious beliefs are but a distorted echo of the real values embodied in your brain.
Fair enough—a bit of reflecting might worsen the approximation, however, do our actions allow us to infer what our values would be after we take into account all possible moral arguments? This is what our terminal values are, and my main point is that actions don’t tell us much about them.
This is what our terminal values are, and my main point is that actions don’t tell us much about them.
Putting aside for a moment my issues with the whole idea of terminal values in the sense you seem to be imagining I would suggest that if our actions don’t tell us much about them then our thoughts and words tell us even less.
Matt Simpson was talking about people who have in fact reflected on their values a lot. Why did you switch to talking about people who think they have reflected a lot?
What “someone actually values” or what their “terminal values” are seems to be ambiguous in this discussion. On one reading, it just means what motivates someone the most. In that case, your claims are pretty plausible.
On the other reading, which seems more relevant in this thread and the original comment, it means the terminal values someone should act on, which we might approximate as what they would value at the end of reflection. Switching back to people who have reflected a lot (not merely think they have), it doesn’t seem all that plausible to suppose that people who have reflected a lot about their “terminal values” are often the most confused about them.
For the record, I’m perfectly happy to concede that in general, speaking of what someone “actually values” or what their present “terminal values” are should be reserved for what in fact most motivates people. I think it is tempting to use that kind of talk to refer to what people should value because it allows us to point to existing mental structures that play a clear causal role in influencing actions, but I think it is ultimately only confusing because it is the wrong mental structures to point to when analyzing rightness or shouldness.
I disagree. People who believe they have thought about their terminal values are often the most confused about what they actually value. Human values as judged by observing how people act rather than by what they claim to think are more self-consistent and more universal than the values professed by people who think they have discovered their own terminal values through reflection. Your conscious beliefs are but a distorted echo of the real values embodied in your brain.
Fair enough—a bit of reflecting might worsen the approximation, however, do our actions allow us to infer what our values would be after we take into account all possible moral arguments? This is what our terminal values are, and my main point is that actions don’t tell us much about them.
Putting aside for a moment my issues with the whole idea of terminal values in the sense you seem to be imagining I would suggest that if our actions don’t tell us much about them then our thoughts and words tell us even less.
On a day to day basis, sure. I accept that possibility. We don’t get to consider all possible moral arguments, well, ever.
Matt Simpson was talking about people who have in fact reflected on their values a lot. Why did you switch to talking about people who think they have reflected a lot?
What “someone actually values” or what their “terminal values” are seems to be ambiguous in this discussion. On one reading, it just means what motivates someone the most. In that case, your claims are pretty plausible.
On the other reading, which seems more relevant in this thread and the original comment, it means the terminal values someone should act on, which we might approximate as what they would value at the end of reflection. Switching back to people who have reflected a lot (not merely think they have), it doesn’t seem all that plausible to suppose that people who have reflected a lot about their “terminal values” are often the most confused about them.
For the record, I’m perfectly happy to concede that in general, speaking of what someone “actually values” or what their present “terminal values” are should be reserved for what in fact most motivates people. I think it is tempting to use that kind of talk to refer to what people should value because it allows us to point to existing mental structures that play a clear causal role in influencing actions, but I think it is ultimately only confusing because it is the wrong mental structures to point to when analyzing rightness or shouldness.