I noticed that the people who didn’t like the book were essentially put off by the rationality. They thought Harry was arrogant and condescending.
If they said that Harry was being arrogant and condescending, perhaps you shouldn’t immediately translate this into your mind as “essentially put off by the rationality”?
In a previous version of the story (I believe Eliezer has since revised it, probably because he did realize it was going too far), Harry in one case called McGonnagal “Minerva” and considering calling her “Minnie”, when McGonagall had been calling him “Mr Potter” throughout.
Harry has indeed been an arrogant and condescending little twit.
I would go even further and point out how Harry’s arrogance is good for the story. Here’s my approach to this critique:
“You’re absolutely right that Harry!HPMOR is arrogant and condescending. It is a clear character flaw, and repeatedly gets in the way of his success. As part of a work of fiction, this is exactly how things should be. All people have flaws, and a story with a character with not flaws wouldn’t be interesting to read!
Harry suffers significantly due to this trait, which is precisely what a good author does with their characters.
Later on there is an entire section dedicated to Harry learning “how to lose,” and growing to not be quite as blind in this way. If his character didn’t have anywhere to develop, it wouldn’t be a very good story!”
While this is true, there can be a distinction between a character with flaws and a character who is extremely irritating to read about. And this is one of those judgement calls where The Audience is Always Right; it seems very reasonable to stop reading a story if the protagonist noticeably irritates you.
In general, commentary to the effect of “you should like this thing” is not very useful, especially if you are trying to figure out why someone reacted negatively.
(These discussions in which one group has an overwhelmingly strong “squick” or “ew” reaction and another group does not are fascinating to me, not least of all because they seem to pop up quite frequently here, e.g. about Eliezer’s OKCupid profile and NYC cuddle piles. Both sides spew huge amounts of ink explaining their emotional reactions, and yet there never seems to be any actual sharing of understanding. In the interests of trying harder...I was also very aggravated by the first few chapters of HPMOR, and would be happy to discuss it calmly here.)
I suppose if you really can’t stand the main character, there’s not much point in reading the thing.
I was somewhat aggravated by the first few chapters, in particular the conversation between Harry and McGonagall about the medical kit. Was that one where you had your aggravated reaction?
I found myself sympathizing with both sides, and wishing Harry would just shut up—and then catching myself and thinking “but he’s completely right. And how can he back down on this when lives are potentially at stake, just to make her feel better?”
Yes, I did find that section grating. I’m describing my emotions post-hoc here (which is not generally reliable), but what I found irritating about the first few chapters was the fact that Harry acts in an extremely arrogant way, nearly to the point of coercing the adult characters, and the story-universe appears to back him up at every turn. This is the “Atlas Shrugged” effect described downthread by CellBioGuy. Harry is probably right in most of those arguments, but he is only so effortlessly correct and competent because the story-universe is designed so that he can teach these rationality lessons to other characters. It feels like the world is unfair, and unfair in the favor of an unlikeable and arrogant character. There is a real-world corollary of this, of course—very arrogant people who always get what they want—and I suspect my emotional reactions to these real and fictional situations are very similar.
(I have since caught up with the rest of the fic, and enjoyed most of it.)
That’s true, but I also think that the culture of LW and the surrounding “rationalist” community is a fairly arrogant culture, and not all rational-thinking cultures are like this (compare the number of scientific papers that say “more research is needed” vs “our paper pretty much settles this issue”). Personally I suspect that a culture less arrogant than the LW “rationalist” community is optimal. For example, Paul Graham nails it IMO… he says controversial stuff and questions establishment views, but does so in thoughtful, evenhanded, polite way.
I agree that in some instances Harry has acted a bit immature and disrespectful. However...
I don’t think he does it too often. Most of the time I think he’s just challenging people’s beliefs (justifiably).
He’s demonstrated that he’s an incredibly caring and selfless person, both admirable qualities. He’s dedicated to making the world a better place, and is willing to sacrifice himself to do so. Shouldn’t that outweigh a little bit of immaturity?
If they said that Harry was being arrogant and condescending, perhaps you shouldn’t immediately translate this into your mind as “essentially put off by the rationality”?
In a previous version of the story (I believe Eliezer has since revised it, probably because he did realize it was going too far), Harry in one case called McGonnagal “Minerva” and considering calling her “Minnie”, when McGonagall had been calling him “Mr Potter” throughout.
Harry has indeed been an arrogant and condescending little twit.
I would go even further and point out how Harry’s arrogance is good for the story. Here’s my approach to this critique:
“You’re absolutely right that Harry!HPMOR is arrogant and condescending. It is a clear character flaw, and repeatedly gets in the way of his success. As part of a work of fiction, this is exactly how things should be. All people have flaws, and a story with a character with not flaws wouldn’t be interesting to read!
Harry suffers significantly due to this trait, which is precisely what a good author does with their characters.
Later on there is an entire section dedicated to Harry learning “how to lose,” and growing to not be quite as blind in this way. If his character didn’t have anywhere to develop, it wouldn’t be a very good story!”
While this is true, there can be a distinction between a character with flaws and a character who is extremely irritating to read about. And this is one of those judgement calls where The Audience is Always Right; it seems very reasonable to stop reading a story if the protagonist noticeably irritates you.
In general, commentary to the effect of “you should like this thing” is not very useful, especially if you are trying to figure out why someone reacted negatively.
(These discussions in which one group has an overwhelmingly strong “squick” or “ew” reaction and another group does not are fascinating to me, not least of all because they seem to pop up quite frequently here, e.g. about Eliezer’s OKCupid profile and NYC cuddle piles. Both sides spew huge amounts of ink explaining their emotional reactions, and yet there never seems to be any actual sharing of understanding. In the interests of trying harder...I was also very aggravated by the first few chapters of HPMOR, and would be happy to discuss it calmly here.)
I suppose if you really can’t stand the main character, there’s not much point in reading the thing.
I was somewhat aggravated by the first few chapters, in particular the conversation between Harry and McGonagall about the medical kit. Was that one where you had your aggravated reaction?
I found myself sympathizing with both sides, and wishing Harry would just shut up—and then catching myself and thinking “but he’s completely right. And how can he back down on this when lives are potentially at stake, just to make her feel better?”
Yes, I did find that section grating. I’m describing my emotions post-hoc here (which is not generally reliable), but what I found irritating about the first few chapters was the fact that Harry acts in an extremely arrogant way, nearly to the point of coercing the adult characters, and the story-universe appears to back him up at every turn. This is the “Atlas Shrugged” effect described downthread by CellBioGuy. Harry is probably right in most of those arguments, but he is only so effortlessly correct and competent because the story-universe is designed so that he can teach these rationality lessons to other characters. It feels like the world is unfair, and unfair in the favor of an unlikeable and arrogant character. There is a real-world corollary of this, of course—very arrogant people who always get what they want—and I suspect my emotional reactions to these real and fictional situations are very similar.
(I have since caught up with the rest of the fic, and enjoyed most of it.)
That’s true, but I also think that the culture of LW and the surrounding “rationalist” community is a fairly arrogant culture, and not all rational-thinking cultures are like this (compare the number of scientific papers that say “more research is needed” vs “our paper pretty much settles this issue”). Personally I suspect that a culture less arrogant than the LW “rationalist” community is optimal. For example, Paul Graham nails it IMO… he says controversial stuff and questions establishment views, but does so in thoughtful, evenhanded, polite way.
I agree that in some instances Harry has acted a bit immature and disrespectful. However...
I don’t think he does it too often. Most of the time I think he’s just challenging people’s beliefs (justifiably).
He’s demonstrated that he’s an incredibly caring and selfless person, both admirable qualities. He’s dedicated to making the world a better place, and is willing to sacrifice himself to do so. Shouldn’t that outweigh a little bit of immaturity?