Assuming both of those are true, CBT isn’t be about denying that. The next step would be to ask “why is that bad?” and “exactly how bad is it?” Eventually, if you do it in a precise structured manner, you’ll find some irrational thoughts hidden away somewhere (for example, “if I’m physically unattractive I’ll never find romantic love” may be one irrational thought, which is easily countered by pointing out that lots of unattractive people are married).
I don’t want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse? People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities. So why think that a therapy that proceeds by correcting these false perceptions will make people feel better about themselves?
The example you mention about romantic love is quite telling. Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners . And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive. (The issue of physical attractiveness is of course just one example. There are many other cognitions underlying depression and anxiety which may also be rooted in solid evidence.)
All of this is described in the Feeling Good Handbook, which you should be able to find a free pdf of if you can’t afford it.
Thanks, I have a pdf of that book, which I intend to read partly on the basis of your recommendation (even though I don’t suffer from depression).
But why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse?
I think it’s not that an honest answer will make you feel better. It’s that a detailed honest answer is more likely to help you find tools for improving your situation, while a generic honest answer will make you feel bad and very little else. It’s really just general steps for solving any problem.
Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners.
Much harder doesn’t mean impossible! How much harder is it? How many people that look [a certain way] have partners and how many don’t? Where did the ones that do have partners find their partner? Maybe you could look there. What other personality traits did they develop that helped them succeed at dating while looking [that way]? Maybe you could work on those!
And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive.
This statement really requires data. Unattractive to whom? Probably not to them.
I don’t want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse?
It’s not an assumption; four weeks of bibliotherapy in the form of reading Feeling Good and doing the exercises has been shown in experiments to be superior to a placebo book for treating depression (75% of patients no longer qualified for DSM criteria of major depressive disorder afterwards), and the improvements were sustained at 3-month and 3-year followup.
Of course, you could then argue that the book doesn’t actually make you evaluate your situation honestly and is just mindless positive thinking, but I don’t think that’d be a fair assessment of the book.
The example you mention about romantic love is quite telling. Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners . And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive. (The issue of physical attractiveness is of course just one example. There are many other cognitions underlying depression and anxiety which may also be rooted in solid evidence.)
Sure, but my example was “if I’m physically unattractive I’ll never find romantic love” not ” “if I’m physically unattractive I’ll have a much harder time finding romantic love.”
Sometimes depressed people think they’re too smart for everything and everyone and that’s why they’re depressed. And because they’re too smart to ever be happy, then there’s nothing out there that can help them. Brains get pretty warped sometimes. =[
Yes, definitely! But if they’re smart, then they’re really good at arguing, which means they’re really good at explaining why you’re wrong. So it’s really really hard. =[
I don’t want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse? People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities. So why think that a therapy that proceeds by correcting these false perceptions will make people feel better about themselves?
If I want to believe that I’m beautiful when I’m not beautiful, then I won’t put myself in situation that might challenge my belief about my own beauty. This creates psychological stress.
People don’t suffer because they have nothing but they suffer because they want something that they don’t get.
It’s not really about having an honest answer and thereby feeling better as it is about having tools or steps you can take to improve your situation rather than being preoccupied with how bad it is or flinching away from it as a possibility.
Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners.
This is true! But that doesn’t mean it is impossible to find romantic partners. Similarly, what is attractive to most people is not necessarily attractive to everyone. And there are a lot of humans in the world! So what’s unattractive to most people might be attractive to several thousand people—which is a lot of potential romantic partners. The other convenient thing is these groups are much better indexed by Google than they used to be a few decades ago. So the thing you can do is Google! And date online, etc.
So yes, it is harder. And it’s frustrating when one group of people has something easier than you do. But easier for them doesn’t mean impossible for you. That’s kind of the idea of CBT. There are things you can do!
I don’t want to sound overly negative, but why assume that an honest answer to those questions will make you feel better, rather than worse? People who are deceived about themselves typically suffer from illusory superiority, overestimating their positive qualities. So why think that a therapy that proceeds by correcting these false perceptions will make people feel better about themselves?
The example you mention about romantic love is quite telling. Unattractive people have a much harder time finding romantic partners . And the partners they do find tend themselves to be unattractive. (The issue of physical attractiveness is of course just one example. There are many other cognitions underlying depression and anxiety which may also be rooted in solid evidence.)
Thanks, I have a pdf of that book, which I intend to read partly on the basis of your recommendation (even though I don’t suffer from depression).
I think it’s not that an honest answer will make you feel better. It’s that a detailed honest answer is more likely to help you find tools for improving your situation, while a generic honest answer will make you feel bad and very little else. It’s really just general steps for solving any problem.
Much harder doesn’t mean impossible! How much harder is it? How many people that look [a certain way] have partners and how many don’t? Where did the ones that do have partners find their partner? Maybe you could look there. What other personality traits did they develop that helped them succeed at dating while looking [that way]? Maybe you could work on those!
This statement really requires data. Unattractive to whom? Probably not to them.
It’s not an assumption; four weeks of bibliotherapy in the form of reading Feeling Good and doing the exercises has been shown in experiments to be superior to a placebo book for treating depression (75% of patients no longer qualified for DSM criteria of major depressive disorder afterwards), and the improvements were sustained at 3-month and 3-year followup.
Of course, you could then argue that the book doesn’t actually make you evaluate your situation honestly and is just mindless positive thinking, but I don’t think that’d be a fair assessment of the book.
Sure, but my example was “if I’m physically unattractive I’ll never find romantic love” not ” “if I’m physically unattractive I’ll have a much harder time finding romantic love.”
Yes, typically. Not always.
If you’re suffering from illusory superiority, are you likely to be pursuing CBT to counter depression?
Almost everyone suffers from illusory superiority. If CBT doesn’t work for people in this category, that is in itself a strong argument against CBT.
It seems like you are saying that depressed people suffer from illusory superiority—overoptimism—in respect to the foci of their depression.
This doesn’t seem right.
Sometimes depressed people think they’re too smart for everything and everyone and that’s why they’re depressed. And because they’re too smart to ever be happy, then there’s nothing out there that can help them. Brains get pretty warped sometimes. =[
But wouldn’t bursting their bubble on this matter then help them in the medium and long runs?
Yes, definitely! But if they’re smart, then they’re really good at arguing, which means they’re really good at explaining why you’re wrong. So it’s really really hard. =[
If I want to believe that I’m beautiful when I’m not beautiful, then I won’t put myself in situation that might challenge my belief about my own beauty. This creates psychological stress.
People don’t suffer because they have nothing but they suffer because they want something that they don’t get.
It’s not really about having an honest answer and thereby feeling better as it is about having tools or steps you can take to improve your situation rather than being preoccupied with how bad it is or flinching away from it as a possibility.
This is true! But that doesn’t mean it is impossible to find romantic partners. Similarly, what is attractive to most people is not necessarily attractive to everyone. And there are a lot of humans in the world! So what’s unattractive to most people might be attractive to several thousand people—which is a lot of potential romantic partners. The other convenient thing is these groups are much better indexed by Google than they used to be a few decades ago. So the thing you can do is Google! And date online, etc.
So yes, it is harder. And it’s frustrating when one group of people has something easier than you do. But easier for them doesn’t mean impossible for you. That’s kind of the idea of CBT. There are things you can do!