This is a fair answer. I disagree with it, but it is fair in the sense that it admits ignorance. The two distinct points of view are that (mine) there is something about human consciousness that cannot be explained within the language of Turing machines and (yours) there is something about human consciousness that we are not currently able to explain in terms of Turing machines. Both people at least admit that consciousness has no explanation currently, and absent future discoveries I don’t think there is a sure way to tell which one is right.
I find it hard to fully develop a theory of morality consistent with your point of view. For example, would it be wrong to (given a computer simulation of a human mind) run that simulation through a given painful experience over and over again? Let us assume that the painful experience has happened once...I just ask whether it would be wrong to rerun that experience. After all, it is just repeating the same deterministic actions on the computer, so nothing seems to be wrong about this. Or, for example, if I make a backup copy of such a program, and then allow that backup to run for a short period of time under slightly different stimuli, at which point does that copy acquire an existence of its own, that would make it wrong to delete that copy in favor of the original? I could give many other similar questions, and my point is not that your point of view denies a morality, but rather that I find it hard to develop a full theory of morality that is internally consistent and that matches your assumptions (not that developing a full theory of morality under my assumptions is that much easier).
Among professional scientists and mathematicians, I have encountered both viewpoints: those who hold it obvious to anyone with even the simplest knowledge that Turing machines cannot be conscious, and those who hold that the opposite it true. Mathematicians seem to lean a little more toward the first viewpoint than other disciplines, but it is a mistake to think that a professional, world-class research level, knowledge of physics, neuroscience, mathematics, or computer science necessarily inclines one towards the soulless viewpoint.
I find it hard to fully develop a theory of morality consistent with your point of view.
I am sceptical of your having a rigorous theory of morality. If you do have one, I am sceptical that it would be undone by accepting the proposition that human consciousness is computable.
I don’t have one either, but I also don’t have any reason to believe in the human meat-computer performing non-computable operations. I actually believe in God more than I believe in that :)
I find it hard to fully develop a theory of morality consistent with your point of view. For example, would it be wrong to (given a computer simulation of a human mind) run that simulation through a given painful experience over and over again? [...]
I agree that such moral questions are difficult—but I don’t see how the difficulty of such questions could constitute evidence about whether a program can “be conscious” or “have a soul” (whatever those mean) or be morally relevant (which has the advantage of being less abstract a concept).
You can ask those same questions without mentioning Turing Machines: what if we have a device capable of making a perfect copy of any physical object, down to each individual quark? Is it morally wrong to kill such a copy of a human? Does the answer to that question have any relevance to the question of whether building such a device is physically possible?
To me, it sounds a bit like saying that since our protocol for seating people around a table are meaningless in zero gravity, then people cannot possibly live in zero gravity.
Is a soul a magic thing that operates outside of physics? I can accept that there are physical processes that are not yet understood. It is not meaningful to suggest there are processes happening outside the universe that effect the universe. That would be a confusion of terms.
it is a mistake to think that a professional, world-class research level, knowledge >of physics, neuroscience, mathematics, or computer science necessarily inclines >one towards the soulless viewpoint.
Since no one can even coherently suggest what the physical process might be for consciousness other than by looking at the evidence we have for thought and mind in the human brain, there really is no other possible position for science to take. If you’ve got science compartmentalized into another magisterium that is separate from “things I know about the world” then there is not much more to say.
btw, I’m fully aware that I’m not asking original questions or having any truly new thoughts about this problem. I just hoped maybe someone would try to answer these old questions given that they had such confidence in their beliefs.
I just hoped maybe someone would try to answer these old questions given that they had such confidence in their beliefs.
This website has an entire two-year course of daily readings that precisely identifies which parts are open questions, and which ones are resolved, as well as how to understand why certain of your questions aren’t even coherent questions in the first place.
This is why you’re in the same position as a creationist who hasn’t studied any biology—you need to actually study this, and I don’t mean, “skim through looking for stuff to argue with”, either.
Because otherwise, you’re just going to sit there mocking the answers you get, and asking silly questions like why are there still apes if we evolved from apes… before you move on to arguments about why you shouldn’t have to study anything, and that if you can’t get a simple answer about evolution then it must be wrong.
However, just as in the evolutionary case, just as in the earth-being-flat case, just as in the sun-going-round-the-world case, the default human intuitions about consciousness and identity are just plain wrong...
And every one of the subjects and questions you’re bringing up, has premises rooted in those false intuitions. Until you learn where those intuitions come from, why our particular neural architecture and evolutionary psychology generates them, and how utterly unfounded in physical terms they are, you’ll continue to think about consciousness and identity “magically”, without even noticing that you’re doing it.
This is why, in the world at large, these questions are considered by so many to be open questions—because to actually grasp the answers requires that you be able to fully reject certain categories of intuition and bias that are hard-wired into human brains
(And which, incidentally, have a large overlap with the categories of intuition that make other supernatural notions so intuitively appealing to most human beings.)
This is a fair answer. I disagree with it, but it is fair in the sense that it admits ignorance. The two distinct points of view are that (mine) there is something about human consciousness that cannot be explained within the language of Turing machines and (yours) there is something about human consciousness that we are not currently able to explain in terms of Turing machines. Both people at least admit that consciousness has no explanation currently, and absent future discoveries I don’t think there is a sure way to tell which one is right.
I find it hard to fully develop a theory of morality consistent with your point of view. For example, would it be wrong to (given a computer simulation of a human mind) run that simulation through a given painful experience over and over again? Let us assume that the painful experience has happened once...I just ask whether it would be wrong to rerun that experience. After all, it is just repeating the same deterministic actions on the computer, so nothing seems to be wrong about this. Or, for example, if I make a backup copy of such a program, and then allow that backup to run for a short period of time under slightly different stimuli, at which point does that copy acquire an existence of its own, that would make it wrong to delete that copy in favor of the original? I could give many other similar questions, and my point is not that your point of view denies a morality, but rather that I find it hard to develop a full theory of morality that is internally consistent and that matches your assumptions (not that developing a full theory of morality under my assumptions is that much easier).
Among professional scientists and mathematicians, I have encountered both viewpoints: those who hold it obvious to anyone with even the simplest knowledge that Turing machines cannot be conscious, and those who hold that the opposite it true. Mathematicians seem to lean a little more toward the first viewpoint than other disciplines, but it is a mistake to think that a professional, world-class research level, knowledge of physics, neuroscience, mathematics, or computer science necessarily inclines one towards the soulless viewpoint.
I am sceptical of your having a rigorous theory of morality. If you do have one, I am sceptical that it would be undone by accepting the proposition that human consciousness is computable.
I don’t have one either, but I also don’t have any reason to believe in the human meat-computer performing non-computable operations. I actually believe in God more than I believe in that :)
I agree that such moral questions are difficult—but I don’t see how the difficulty of such questions could constitute evidence about whether a program can “be conscious” or “have a soul” (whatever those mean) or be morally relevant (which has the advantage of being less abstract a concept).
You can ask those same questions without mentioning Turing Machines: what if we have a device capable of making a perfect copy of any physical object, down to each individual quark? Is it morally wrong to kill such a copy of a human? Does the answer to that question have any relevance to the question of whether building such a device is physically possible?
To me, it sounds a bit like saying that since our protocol for seating people around a table are meaningless in zero gravity, then people cannot possibly live in zero gravity.
Our ignorance about some moral questions cannot provide evidence that consciousness works or doesn’t work a certain way.
Is a soul a magic thing that operates outside of physics? I can accept that there are physical processes that are not yet understood. It is not meaningful to suggest there are processes happening outside the universe that effect the universe. That would be a confusion of terms.
Since no one can even coherently suggest what the physical process might be for consciousness other than by looking at the evidence we have for thought and mind in the human brain, there really is no other possible position for science to take. If you’ve got science compartmentalized into another magisterium that is separate from “things I know about the world” then there is not much more to say.
What’s wrong with Dennett’s explanation of consciousness?
sorry, not familiar with that. can it be summarized?
There is a Wikipedia page, for what it’s worth.
Yes
btw, I’m fully aware that I’m not asking original questions or having any truly new thoughts about this problem. I just hoped maybe someone would try to answer these old questions given that they had such confidence in their beliefs.
This website has an entire two-year course of daily readings that precisely identifies which parts are open questions, and which ones are resolved, as well as how to understand why certain of your questions aren’t even coherent questions in the first place.
This is why you’re in the same position as a creationist who hasn’t studied any biology—you need to actually study this, and I don’t mean, “skim through looking for stuff to argue with”, either.
Because otherwise, you’re just going to sit there mocking the answers you get, and asking silly questions like why are there still apes if we evolved from apes… before you move on to arguments about why you shouldn’t have to study anything, and that if you can’t get a simple answer about evolution then it must be wrong.
However, just as in the evolutionary case, just as in the earth-being-flat case, just as in the sun-going-round-the-world case, the default human intuitions about consciousness and identity are just plain wrong...
And every one of the subjects and questions you’re bringing up, has premises rooted in those false intuitions. Until you learn where those intuitions come from, why our particular neural architecture and evolutionary psychology generates them, and how utterly unfounded in physical terms they are, you’ll continue to think about consciousness and identity “magically”, without even noticing that you’re doing it.
This is why, in the world at large, these questions are considered by so many to be open questions—because to actually grasp the answers requires that you be able to fully reject certain categories of intuition and bias that are hard-wired into human brains
(And which, incidentally, have a large overlap with the categories of intuition that make other supernatural notions so intuitively appealing to most human beings.)