What inference are you expecting readers to draw from that?
Inferences I draw from it: 1. Looks like researchers are checking one another’s results, developing models that probe different features, improving models as time goes on, etc.; those are all good things. 2. It would be good to know how well these models agree with one another on what questions. I don’t know how well they do, but I’m pretty sure that if the answer were “they disagree wildly on central issues” then the denier/skeptic[1] camp would be shouting it from the rooftops. Unless, I guess, the disagreement were because some models predict much worse futures than currently expected. So my guess is that although there are such a lot of models, they pretty much all agree that e.g. under business-as-usual assumptions we can expect quite a lot more warming over the coming decades.
[1] I don’t know of any good terms that indicate without value judgement that a given person does or doesn’t broadly agree that global warming is real, substantially caused by human activities, and likely to continue in the future.
That there is no single forecast that “the science” converged on
I confess it never occurred to me that anyone would ever think such a thing. (Other than when reading what you wrote, when I thought “surely he can’t be attacking such a strawman”.)
I mean, I bet there are people who think that or say it. Probably when someone says “we expect 2 degrees of warming by such-and-such a date unless something changes radically” many naive listeners take it to mean that all models agree on exactly 2 degrees of warming by exactly that date. But people seriously claiming that all the models agree on a single forecast? Even halfway-clueful people seriously believing it? Really?
A nice example of a non-quantified claim
Do please show us all the quantified claims you have made about global warming, so that we can compare. (I can remember … precisely none, ever. But perhaps I just missed them.)
Not that I think there’s anything very bad about non-quantified claims—else I wouldn’t go on making them, just like everyone else does. I simply think you’re being disingenuous in complaining when other people make such claims, while avoiding making any definite claims to speak of yourself and leaving the ones you do make non-quantified. From the great-grandparent of this comment I quote: “relatively easily”, “relatively uncontested”, “really complicated”, “I distrust the confidence …”, “a LOT of these models”, “not very controversial”, (implicitly in the same sentence) “very controversial”.
But, since you ask: I think it is broadly agreed (among actual climate scientists) that business as usual will probably (let’s say p=0.75 or thereabouts) mean that by 2100 global mean surface temperature will be at least about 2 degrees C above what it was before 1900. (Relative to the same baseline, we’re currently somewhere around 0.9 degrees up from then.)
“Sceptic” implies value judgement? I thought being a sceptic was a good thing
I paraphrase: “How silly to suggest that ‘sceptic’ implies a value judgement. It implies a positive value judgement.”
Being a skeptic is a good thing. I was deliberately using one word that suggests a positive judgement (“skeptic”) alongside one that suggests a negative one (“denier”). Perhaps try reading what I write more charitably?
I confess it never occurred to me that anyone would ever think such a thing.
I recommend glancing at some popular press. There’s “scientific consensus”, dontcha know? No need to mention specific numbers, but all right-thinking men, err… persons know that Something Must Be Done. Think of the children!
Do please show us all the quantified claims you have made about global warming
Is this a competition?
I don’t feel the need to make quantified claims because I’m not asking anyone to reduce their carbon footprint or introduce carbon taxes, or destroy their incandescent bulbs, or tar-and-feather coal companies...
Let me quote you some Richard Feynman: “I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything”.
Being a skeptic is a good thing
It is to me and, seems like, to you. I know people who think otherwise: a sceptic is a malcontent, a troublemaker who’s never satisfied, one who distrusts what honest people tell him.
I recommend glancing at some popular press. There’s “scientific consensus”, dontcha know?
Yeah, there’s all kinds of crap in the popular press. That’s why I generally don’t pay much attention to it. Anyway, what do the deficiencies of the popular press have to do with the discussion here?
Is this a competition?
No, it’s a demonstration of your insincerity.
I don’t feel the need to make quantified claims because I’m not [...]
Status quo bias.
In (implicitly) asking us not to put effort into reducing carbon footprints, introduce carbon taxes, etc., etc., you are asking us (or our descendants) to accept whatever consequences that may have for the future.
I fail to see why causing short-term inconvenience should require quantified claims, but not causing long-term possible disaster.
(I am all in favour of the attitude Feymnan describes. It is mine too. If there is any actual connection between that and our discussion, other than that you are turning on the applause lights, I fail to see it.)
Anyway, what do the deficiencies of the popular press have to do with the discussion here?
Because my original conversation was with a guy who, evidently, picked up some of his ideas about global warming from there.
In (implicitly) asking us not to put effort into reducing carbon footprints
LOL. I am also implicitly asking not to stop sex-slave trafficking, not to prevent starvation somewhere in Africa, and not to thwart child abuse. A right monster am I!
In any case, I could not fail to notice certain… rigidities in you mind with respect to certain topics. Perhaps it will be better if I tap out.
I could not fail to notice certain… rigidities in your mind
I’m sorry to hear that. I would gently suggest that you consider the possibility that the rigidity may not be where you think it is, but I doubt there’s much point.
What inference are you expecting readers to draw from that?
Inferences I draw from it: 1. Looks like researchers are checking one another’s results, developing models that probe different features, improving models as time goes on, etc.; those are all good things. 2. It would be good to know how well these models agree with one another on what questions. I don’t know how well they do, but I’m pretty sure that if the answer were “they disagree wildly on central issues” then the denier/skeptic[1] camp would be shouting it from the rooftops. Unless, I guess, the disagreement were because some models predict much worse futures than currently expected. So my guess is that although there are such a lot of models, they pretty much all agree that e.g. under business-as-usual assumptions we can expect quite a lot more warming over the coming decades.
[1] I don’t know of any good terms that indicate without value judgement that a given person does or doesn’t broadly agree that global warming is real, substantially caused by human activities, and likely to continue in the future.
That there is no single forecast that “the science” converged on and everyone is in agreement about what will happen.
If you’re curious, IPCC reports will provide you with lots of data.
A nice example of a non-quantified claim :-P
“Sceptic” implies value judgement? I thought being a sceptic was a good thing, certainly better than being credulous or gullible.
I confess it never occurred to me that anyone would ever think such a thing. (Other than when reading what you wrote, when I thought “surely he can’t be attacking such a strawman”.)
I mean, I bet there are people who think that or say it. Probably when someone says “we expect 2 degrees of warming by such-and-such a date unless something changes radically” many naive listeners take it to mean that all models agree on exactly 2 degrees of warming by exactly that date. But people seriously claiming that all the models agree on a single forecast? Even halfway-clueful people seriously believing it? Really?
Do please show us all the quantified claims you have made about global warming, so that we can compare. (I can remember … precisely none, ever. But perhaps I just missed them.)
Not that I think there’s anything very bad about non-quantified claims—else I wouldn’t go on making them, just like everyone else does. I simply think you’re being disingenuous in complaining when other people make such claims, while avoiding making any definite claims to speak of yourself and leaving the ones you do make non-quantified. From the great-grandparent of this comment I quote: “relatively easily”, “relatively uncontested”, “really complicated”, “I distrust the confidence …”, “a LOT of these models”, “not very controversial”, (implicitly in the same sentence) “very controversial”.
But, since you ask: I think it is broadly agreed (among actual climate scientists) that business as usual will probably (let’s say p=0.75 or thereabouts) mean that by 2100 global mean surface temperature will be at least about 2 degrees C above what it was before 1900. (Relative to the same baseline, we’re currently somewhere around 0.9 degrees up from then.)
I paraphrase: “How silly to suggest that ‘sceptic’ implies a value judgement. It implies a positive value judgement.”
Being a skeptic is a good thing. I was deliberately using one word that suggests a positive judgement (“skeptic”) alongside one that suggests a negative one (“denier”). Perhaps try reading what I write more charitably?
I recommend glancing at some popular press. There’s “scientific consensus”, dontcha know? No need to mention specific numbers, but all right-thinking men, err… persons know that Something Must Be Done. Think of the children!
Is this a competition?
I don’t feel the need to make quantified claims because I’m not asking anyone to reduce their carbon footprint or introduce carbon taxes, or destroy their incandescent bulbs, or tar-and-feather coal companies...
Let me quote you some Richard Feynman: “I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything”.
It is to me and, seems like, to you. I know people who think otherwise: a sceptic is a malcontent, a troublemaker who’s never satisfied, one who distrusts what honest people tell him.
Yeah, there’s all kinds of crap in the popular press. That’s why I generally don’t pay much attention to it. Anyway, what do the deficiencies of the popular press have to do with the discussion here?
No, it’s a demonstration of your insincerity.
Status quo bias.
In (implicitly) asking us not to put effort into reducing carbon footprints, introduce carbon taxes, etc., etc., you are asking us (or our descendants) to accept whatever consequences that may have for the future.
I fail to see why causing short-term inconvenience should require quantified claims, but not causing long-term possible disaster.
(I am all in favour of the attitude Feymnan describes. It is mine too. If there is any actual connection between that and our discussion, other than that you are turning on the applause lights, I fail to see it.)
Sure. So what?
Because my original conversation was with a guy who, evidently, picked up some of his ideas about global warming from there.
LOL. I am also implicitly asking not to stop sex-slave trafficking, not to prevent starvation somewhere in Africa, and not to thwart child abuse. A right monster am I!
In any case, I could not fail to notice certain… rigidities in you mind with respect to certain topics. Perhaps it will be better if I tap out.
Er, no.
I’m sorry to hear that. I would gently suggest that you consider the possibility that the rigidity may not be where you think it is, but I doubt there’s much point.