People who live in developed Western countries usually make and spend much more money than people in poorer countries, but aren’t that much happier. It feels like we’re overpaying for happiness, spending too much money to get a single bit of enjoyment.
Status competitions are mostly zero sum. To the extent that people get happiness from status (and it seems like a huge component of most people’s psychological well-being and life satisfaction), you would expect that people in developed Western countries would have to spend much more than similar people in developing countries to get similar levels of status.
I do think it’s very hard to measure the enjoyment derived from activities, and many people are probably not optimizing their spending well.
As an aside, I’m not sure that status-derived happiness is always zero-sum. Imagine a society where everyone considers themselves worthless compared to Cthulhu. You can make everyone feel better about their status by explaining that Cthulhu doesn’t exist. You can do the same in our world as well, by substituting “Cthulhu” with “photoshopped supermodels”.
Agreed. The main caveat I had in mind is that communities are not fixed- it’s easy for everyone to be a big fish in a little pond if there are lots of little ponds and people weight most of their time towards the ponds in which they are big. See the Loser section of the Gervais Principle, but also note the caveat there that there are big status competitions that it’s problematic to try to opt out of.
Yeah. I sometimes find that I really like the old-fashioned words for some emotions, like “envy” or “sloth”. Kinda puts them in their proper perspective.
To the extent that people get happiness from status (and it seems like a huge component of most people’s psychological well-being and life satisfaction), you would expect that people in developed Western countries would have to spend much more than similar people in developing countries to get similar levels of status.
I hear this explanation mentioned a lot, but it doesn’t seem to quite fit my experience (maybe I’m an atypical mind?). To be clear, I certainly do get a lot of boosts to well-being from being high status in a way which is zero-sum (e.g. people devoting more attention to me than others), but the situations where I feel most comfortable tend to be in communities and situations that feel status-flat, and where basically everyone is respected an equal amount. It is also my experience that most groups of friends will tend to become this, especially over time, and that status considerations are more relevant when interacting with “outsiders” who you aren’t direct close friends with.
Since people presumably prefer to spend more time with their friends than outsiders, the notion that status is a huge component of people’s well-being has always seemed a little puzzling to me. I wonder if this may be a cultural difference, since Finland has a very status-flat culture in general.
I would buy the claim that Finland is more status-flat than other cultures. I suspect the perception is also affected by ‘bubbling,’ in the sense of people looking at the local status landscape and saying “it looks flat to me here.” Yes, but that could be because your eye stops at the hills and valleys; your friends being all comparable status is both predicted by everyone being roughly equal status and people preferentially befriending people at roughly the same status.
your friends being all comparable status is both predicted by everyone being roughly equal status and people preferentially befriending people at roughly the same status.
Good point. Also, having a diverse set of experiences can help you empathize (or at least familiarize yourself with) the perspectives of different people, or the desires, interests, and incentives of people in different situations. Purchasing most items is unlikely to provide the same benefit.
I saw someone on Reddit express the opinion that the meaning of life is to have deep emotional interactions with other people, or “feelings jams”. Wouldn’t say that’s completely true, but it’s an interesting alternative to chasing material things, hobbies, or diverse experiences :-)
I wonder if introspecting on a general desire for status to gain precision/resolution regarding which subclasses of humans you want to consider you high status would significantly improve resource efficiency? If you can shape your social surroundings so that system 1 wants to accomplish your terminal values to gain status with your social group, you might be able to make the phenomenon work in your favor.
Status competitions are mostly zero sum. To the extent that people get happiness from status (and it seems like a huge component of most people’s psychological well-being and life satisfaction), you would expect that people in developed Western countries would have to spend much more than similar people in developing countries to get similar levels of status.
I do think it’s very hard to measure the enjoyment derived from activities, and many people are probably not optimizing their spending well.
Yeah, point taken.
As an aside, I’m not sure that status-derived happiness is always zero-sum. Imagine a society where everyone considers themselves worthless compared to Cthulhu. You can make everyone feel better about their status by explaining that Cthulhu doesn’t exist. You can do the same in our world as well, by substituting “Cthulhu” with “photoshopped supermodels”.
Agreed. The main caveat I had in mind is that communities are not fixed- it’s easy for everyone to be a big fish in a little pond if there are lots of little ponds and people weight most of their time towards the ponds in which they are big. See the Loser section of the Gervais Principle, but also note the caveat there that there are big status competitions that it’s problematic to try to opt out of.
Or you could even invent a new anti-Cthulhu for everyone to feel better than.
This solves a surprisingly high proportion of personal problems, I’ve found.
Yeah. I sometimes find that I really like the old-fashioned words for some emotions, like “envy” or “sloth”. Kinda puts them in their proper perspective.
I hear this explanation mentioned a lot, but it doesn’t seem to quite fit my experience (maybe I’m an atypical mind?). To be clear, I certainly do get a lot of boosts to well-being from being high status in a way which is zero-sum (e.g. people devoting more attention to me than others), but the situations where I feel most comfortable tend to be in communities and situations that feel status-flat, and where basically everyone is respected an equal amount. It is also my experience that most groups of friends will tend to become this, especially over time, and that status considerations are more relevant when interacting with “outsiders” who you aren’t direct close friends with.
Since people presumably prefer to spend more time with their friends than outsiders, the notion that status is a huge component of people’s well-being has always seemed a little puzzling to me. I wonder if this may be a cultural difference, since Finland has a very status-flat culture in general.
I would buy the claim that Finland is more status-flat than other cultures. I suspect the perception is also affected by ‘bubbling,’ in the sense of people looking at the local status landscape and saying “it looks flat to me here.” Yes, but that could be because your eye stops at the hills and valleys; your friends being all comparable status is both predicted by everyone being roughly equal status and people preferentially befriending people at roughly the same status.
That sounds correct.
Yes. invest in experience not in things
Good point. Also, having a diverse set of experiences can help you empathize (or at least familiarize yourself with) the perspectives of different people, or the desires, interests, and incentives of people in different situations. Purchasing most items is unlikely to provide the same benefit.
I saw someone on Reddit express the opinion that the meaning of life is to have deep emotional interactions with other people, or “feelings jams”. Wouldn’t say that’s completely true, but it’s an interesting alternative to chasing material things, hobbies, or diverse experiences :-)
I wonder if introspecting on a general desire for status to gain precision/resolution regarding which subclasses of humans you want to consider you high status would significantly improve resource efficiency? If you can shape your social surroundings so that system 1 wants to accomplish your terminal values to gain status with your social group, you might be able to make the phenomenon work in your favor.