Talking about morality causes much confusion, because most philosophers—and most people—do not have a distinct concept of morality. …
I think—and have, for as long as I can remember—that morality is about doing the right thing. But this is not what most people think morality is about!
And more in this vein. I really dislike this post. The author proclaims that he is shocked, shocked that other people are wrong, even though he himself is right. Then he proceeds to analyze why almost everyone else got it wrong, without once trying to justify his own position using any argument other than professed astonishment that any thinking person could disagree.
The author proclaims that he is shocked, shocked that other people are wrong, even though he himself is right. Then he proceeds to analyze why almost everyone else got it wrong, without once trying to justify his own position using any argument other than professed astonishment that any thinking person could disagree.
I think you took this post in unnecessarily bad faith, Perplexed...unless this is an area where you’ve already had frustrating head-banging-on-wall discussions, in which case I understand. I did not detect any particular ‘shocked-ness’ in the author’s explanation of how he understands morality.
I think—and have, for as long as I can remember—that morality is about doing the right thing. But this is not what most people think morality is about!
Okay, reading back I can see your point, but I still don’t find it offensive in any way. As far as I can tell, all that he’s claiming is that a) people claim morality is about one thing (doing the right thing) but they discuss it and act on it as if it’s something different (the freedom to choose, or soul-karma-points). If he’s right, it wouldn’t be the first time that a word had multiple meanings to different people, but it would explain why morality is such a touchy subject in discussion. I read this post and thought “wow, I never noticed that before, that’s interesting...that could explain a lot.”
My one complaint is that ‘doing the right thing’ is presented as atomic, as obvious, which I’m pretty sure it isn’t. What paradigm do you personally use to determine ‘right’, Phil?
I’ll try to reword the post to be clearer about what I’m claiming.
It isn’t a matter of who is “right” about what morality means. If anything, the majority is always “right” about what words mean. But that majority position has two big problems:
It makes the word useless and confusing. “Morality” then doesn’t represent a real concept; it’s just a way of hiding self-interest.
It rules out actually believing in values. The word “morality” is positioned so as to suck up any thoughts about what is the right thing to do, and convince the unsuspecting thinker that these thoughts are nonsense.
I really dislike this comment. It emotes claims, without offering any justification of those claims. Furthermore, I disagree with those claims. I shall now try to justify my disagreement.
A definition of (explanation of) ‘morality’ (morality) as a convention characterizing how people should feel about actions (one’s own, or other people’s) is neither useless nor confusing. Defining correct moral behavior by reference to a societal consensus is no more useless or confusing than defining correct use of language by a societal consensus.
Furthermore, this kind of definition has one characteristic which makes it more useful as a prescription of how to behave than is any ‘stand-alone’ prescription which does not invoke society. It is more useful because it contains within itself the answer to both central questions of morality or ethics.
Q. What is the right thing to do? A. What society says.
Q. Why ought I to do the right thing? A. Because if you don’t, society will make your life miserable.
It rules out actually believing in values.
I don’t see why you claim that. Unless, that is, you have a non-standard definition of ‘values’. Do you perhaps intend to be using a definition of morals and values which excludes any actions taken for pragmatic reasons? Gee, I hope you don’t intend to defend that position by stating that most people share your disdain of the merely practical.
If I seem overly confrontational here, I apologize. But, Phil, you really are not even trying to imagine that there might be other rational positions on these questions.
A definition of (explanation of) ‘morality’ (morality) as a convention characterizing how people should feel about actions (one’s own, or other people’s) is neither useless nor confusing. Defining correct moral behavior by reference to a societal consensus is no more useless or confusing than defining correct use of language by a societal consensus.
I don’t think you’re reading very carefully. That is not what I was calling useless. Do you understand why I kept talking about free will?
I don’t think you’re reading very carefully. That is not what I was calling useless.
Maybe you are right that I’m not reading carefully enough. You called the word ‘morality’ useless if it were taken to have a particular meaning. I responded that the meaning in question is not useless. Yes, I see the distinction, but I don’t see how that distinction matters.
Do you understand why I kept talking about free will?
No I don’t. Free will means entirely too many different things to too many different people. I usually fail to understand what other people mean by it. So I find it best to simply “taboo” the phrase. Or, if written in a sentence of text, I simply ignore the sentence as probably meaningless.
I’m objecting to the view that morality requires free will. I’m not as interested in taking a stand on how people learn morality, or whether there is such a thing as objective morality, or whether it’s just a social consensus, except that I would like to use terms so that it’s still possible to think about these issues.
Kant’s view at best confounds the problem of choosing values, and the problem of free will. At worst, it makes the problem of values impossible to think about, whether or not you believe in free will. (Perversely, focusing on whether or not your actions are pleasing to God obliterates your ability to make moral judgements.)
I think you are missing the point regarding Kant’s mention of free will here. You need to consider Kant’s explanation of why it is acceptable to enslave or kill animals, but unacceptable to enslave or kill human beings. Hint: it has nothing to do with ‘consciousness’.
His reason for excluding the possibility that entities without free will are moral agents was not simply to avoid having to participate in discussions regarding whether a bowling ball has behaved morally. Limiting morality to entities with free will has consequences in Kant’s philosophy. Edit: minor change in wording.
And more in this vein. I really dislike this post. The author proclaims that he is shocked, shocked that other people are wrong, even though he himself is right. Then he proceeds to analyze why almost everyone else got it wrong, without once trying to justify his own position using any argument other than professed astonishment that any thinking person could disagree.
Downvoted.
I think you took this post in unnecessarily bad faith, Perplexed...unless this is an area where you’ve already had frustrating head-banging-on-wall discussions, in which case I understand. I did not detect any particular ‘shocked-ness’ in the author’s explanation of how he understands morality.
Okay, reading back I can see your point, but I still don’t find it offensive in any way. As far as I can tell, all that he’s claiming is that a) people claim morality is about one thing (doing the right thing) but they discuss it and act on it as if it’s something different (the freedom to choose, or soul-karma-points). If he’s right, it wouldn’t be the first time that a word had multiple meanings to different people, but it would explain why morality is such a touchy subject in discussion. I read this post and thought “wow, I never noticed that before, that’s interesting...that could explain a lot.”
My one complaint is that ‘doing the right thing’ is presented as atomic, as obvious, which I’m pretty sure it isn’t. What paradigm do you personally use to determine ‘right’, Phil?
I’ll try to reword the post to be clearer about what I’m claiming.
It isn’t a matter of who is “right” about what morality means. If anything, the majority is always “right” about what words mean. But that majority position has two big problems:
It makes the word useless and confusing. “Morality” then doesn’t represent a real concept; it’s just a way of hiding self-interest.
It rules out actually believing in values. The word “morality” is positioned so as to suck up any thoughts about what is the right thing to do, and convince the unsuspecting thinker that these thoughts are nonsense.
I really dislike this comment. It emotes claims, without offering any justification of those claims. Furthermore, I disagree with those claims. I shall now try to justify my disagreement.
A definition of (explanation of) ‘morality’ (morality) as a convention characterizing how people should feel about actions (one’s own, or other people’s) is neither useless nor confusing. Defining correct moral behavior by reference to a societal consensus is no more useless or confusing than defining correct use of language by a societal consensus.
Furthermore, this kind of definition has one characteristic which makes it more useful as a prescription of how to behave than is any ‘stand-alone’ prescription which does not invoke society. It is more useful because it contains within itself the answer to both central questions of morality or ethics.
Q. What is the right thing to do? A. What society says.
Q. Why ought I to do the right thing? A. Because if you don’t, society will make your life miserable.
I don’t see why you claim that. Unless, that is, you have a non-standard definition of ‘values’. Do you perhaps intend to be using a definition of morals and values which excludes any actions taken for pragmatic reasons? Gee, I hope you don’t intend to defend that position by stating that most people share your disdain of the merely practical.
If I seem overly confrontational here, I apologize. But, Phil, you really are not even trying to imagine that there might be other rational positions on these questions.
I don’t think you’re reading very carefully. That is not what I was calling useless. Do you understand why I kept talking about free will?
Maybe you are right that I’m not reading carefully enough. You called the word ‘morality’ useless if it were taken to have a particular meaning. I responded that the meaning in question is not useless. Yes, I see the distinction, but I don’t see how that distinction matters.
No I don’t. Free will means entirely too many different things to too many different people. I usually fail to understand what other people mean by it. So I find it best to simply “taboo” the phrase. Or, if written in a sentence of text, I simply ignore the sentence as probably meaningless.
I’m objecting to the view that morality requires free will. I’m not as interested in taking a stand on how people learn morality, or whether there is such a thing as objective morality, or whether it’s just a social consensus, except that I would like to use terms so that it’s still possible to think about these issues.
Kant’s view at best confounds the problem of choosing values, and the problem of free will. At worst, it makes the problem of values impossible to think about, whether or not you believe in free will. (Perversely, focusing on whether or not your actions are pleasing to God obliterates your ability to make moral judgements.)
I think you are missing the point regarding Kant’s mention of free will here. You need to consider Kant’s explanation of why it is acceptable to enslave or kill animals, but unacceptable to enslave or kill human beings. Hint: it has nothing to do with ‘consciousness’.
His reason for excluding the possibility that entities without free will are moral agents was not simply to avoid having to participate in discussions regarding whether a bowling ball has behaved morally. Limiting morality to entities with free will has consequences in Kant’s philosophy.
Edit: minor change in wording.