I must object to the idea that the talk a phenomenon should be compartmentalized into different “discussions” with different “objectives” rather than attempting to obtain a sensible unified description that can be specialized as needed. It’s true in general very different models may be needed for different aspects of a problem if the problem is hard enough, but that doesn’t seem to actually help your case here.
Furthermore:
The privilege discussion is not about how to fix the problem
Er, isn’t that the whole goal of feminism?
In any case, it seems like we’re talking somewhat at cross purposes. I’m demanding language be accurate so we can discuss problems precisely and work with them, while you are suggesting we sacrifice accurate language in order that we may fight the problem through the language itself. I don’t see how we can resolve which approach is better without access to a lot of information we don’t have.
I may be wrong about this (I should probably check in on some feminist forums and get opinions from people working more seriously in the field) but I would say that the privileged discussion has a subgoal that is necessary for the supergoal of “actually fixing the problem.” The goal of the privileged discussion is there to discuss what the problem IS and get people involved with it, because you can’t actually fix the problem until a critical mass of people care. There is nothing inconsistent about that.
I’m demanding language be accurate so we can discuss problems precisely and work with them, while you are suggesting we sacrifice accurate language in order that we may fight the problem through the language itself.
I do not think there is such a thing as language without inherent impact. Demanding the kind of precise, abstract language we use here has a way of abstracting problems and removing the emotional context from them. Which is important. Sometimes. But emotional context is not meaningless. It is the emotional context that made the movement necessary in the first place. A technical dialogue that makes men normal and women abnormally is automatically contributing to lower status. It’s not neutral.
I don’t see how we can resolve which approach is better without access to a lot of information we don’t have.
Agree with this. But my current take is: if the privilege discussion (and feminist movement) were just beginning now, I’d estimate the likelihood of technical language being superior maybe 30-40%. But since there’s already a big movement with inertia that has chosen to use certain words, attempting to switch gears now would be problematic in all sorts of ways, and I think the effort of changing reduces the likelihood down to 5-10% tops.
Really though, the issue is that the rest of the world does not share Less Wrong’s rational standards. Feminism is part of the rest of the world, and yes a lot of feminists would probably benefit from being more rational. Use of the world “Privilege” is probably no more or less technically accurate than the general level of discourse throughout Feminist blogs. It’s also no less technically accurate than the general level of discourse in the Western world. (I actually think it’s several steps ABOVE the normal accuracy of discourse about women/men relations).
Feminism is not, the place for a man to show up and say “hey you guys need to be more rational!” “Women are irrational” is one of the very stereotypes they’re fighting against. Whether or not it’s accurate in this place, it will set off flags that poison the conversation rather than improve it. Whatever rationality that feminism is lacking should be addressed by fixing society in general, not feminism in particular.
And again, in Eliezer’s My Way, he notes that his (and probably Less Wrong in general’s) approach to rationality is very male. What works for the most men isn’t necessarily what works for most women. I don’t know how much men really are more technically minded than women, how much is stereotypes, and how much is culture that deserves to change. But I would not assume that the Less Wrong culture is inherently better than what a female dominated rationalist culture might come up with.
I think an anonymous person would probably be assumed to be male. Fair? Maybe not, but the set of circumstances that resulted in that situation weren’t really fair either.
In subjects like this, a lot of the discussion seems to be about:
Hey, I have this problem ….
Oh, me too! Nice to meet you.
A lot of us seem to have this problem, or something like it.
It reminds me of this other problem _____.
Hold on, it’s not like _____ for me because _____.
Is it like _____ for you? Yes, and _____ too.
Oh wow, it’s good to hear this isn’t just me being weird!
Is it similar to _____? Maybe, in these ways, but not in those ways.
What kinds of things have people done about it? Did that help?
If we _____, we’d best be sure not to _____ by mistake ….
In other words, a lot of it is about confirming that a problem exists, that people are dealing with a shared reality and not just having unrelated personal difficulties, establishing that they can trust one another to discuss what might be difficult things to talk about, and establishing a vocabulary for talking about the problem — so that individuals have a better understanding of their situation and are able to choose what to do individually on the basis of others’ situations too.
I’m demanding language be accurate so we can discuss problems precisely and work with them, while you are suggesting we sacrifice accurate language in order that we may fight the problem through the language itself.
Insisting that the problem be talked about in one particular vocabulary — that your language is “accurate” and the other person’s language “sacrifices accuracy” — doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that would help solve problems of this sort.
I’m not sure where you got the idea I was proposing a solution. I’m just pointing out that I think the current terminology is not accurate in terms of mechanism, and suggesting that we use terminology that better reflects the underlying mechanism (if I’m correct that it does not). Admittedly, that is a question in itself—and in that sense I suppose I am proposing a solution to that particular subproblem—but I make no claim that better terminology will somehow solve the ultimate problems feminism fights. Rather I’m suggesting we be clear on what’s going on first (and use terminology that reflects that); that suggests far away from proposing solutions.
Insisting that the problem be talked about in one particular vocabulary — that your language is “accurate” and the other person’s language “sacrifices accuracy” — doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that would help solve problems of this sort.
I’m not really sure what to make of this statement. Some terminology is better than other terminology. Either what I’m suggesting more accurately reflects the situation, or it doesn’t. Maybe I’m right or maybe I’m wrong, but that the question of which terminology is better is a question that can be discussed is something that should be uncontroversial.
I must object to the idea that the talk a phenomenon should be compartmentalized into different “discussions” with different “objectives” rather than attempting to obtain a sensible unified description that can be specialized as needed. It’s true in general very different models may be needed for different aspects of a problem if the problem is hard enough, but that doesn’t seem to actually help your case here.
Furthermore:
Er, isn’t that the whole goal of feminism?
In any case, it seems like we’re talking somewhat at cross purposes. I’m demanding language be accurate so we can discuss problems precisely and work with them, while you are suggesting we sacrifice accurate language in order that we may fight the problem through the language itself. I don’t see how we can resolve which approach is better without access to a lot of information we don’t have.
I may be wrong about this (I should probably check in on some feminist forums and get opinions from people working more seriously in the field) but I would say that the privileged discussion has a subgoal that is necessary for the supergoal of “actually fixing the problem.” The goal of the privileged discussion is there to discuss what the problem IS and get people involved with it, because you can’t actually fix the problem until a critical mass of people care. There is nothing inconsistent about that.
I do not think there is such a thing as language without inherent impact. Demanding the kind of precise, abstract language we use here has a way of abstracting problems and removing the emotional context from them. Which is important. Sometimes. But emotional context is not meaningless. It is the emotional context that made the movement necessary in the first place. A technical dialogue that makes men normal and women abnormally is automatically contributing to lower status. It’s not neutral.
Agree with this. But my current take is: if the privilege discussion (and feminist movement) were just beginning now, I’d estimate the likelihood of technical language being superior maybe 30-40%. But since there’s already a big movement with inertia that has chosen to use certain words, attempting to switch gears now would be problematic in all sorts of ways, and I think the effort of changing reduces the likelihood down to 5-10% tops.
Really though, the issue is that the rest of the world does not share Less Wrong’s rational standards. Feminism is part of the rest of the world, and yes a lot of feminists would probably benefit from being more rational. Use of the world “Privilege” is probably no more or less technically accurate than the general level of discourse throughout Feminist blogs. It’s also no less technically accurate than the general level of discourse in the Western world. (I actually think it’s several steps ABOVE the normal accuracy of discourse about women/men relations).
Feminism is not, the place for a man to show up and say “hey you guys need to be more rational!” “Women are irrational” is one of the very stereotypes they’re fighting against. Whether or not it’s accurate in this place, it will set off flags that poison the conversation rather than improve it. Whatever rationality that feminism is lacking should be addressed by fixing society in general, not feminism in particular.
And again, in Eliezer’s My Way, he notes that his (and probably Less Wrong in general’s) approach to rationality is very male. What works for the most men isn’t necessarily what works for most women. I don’t know how much men really are more technically minded than women, how much is stereotypes, and how much is culture that deserves to change. But I would not assume that the Less Wrong culture is inherently better than what a female dominated rationalist culture might come up with.
How about, crazy though this may sound, a woman advocating rationality?
That sounds like an excellent idea. My point was specifically targeted at guys that don’t understand the array of signals they are sending.
I wonder what gender someone anonymous would be treated as, if a woman could say this without bad signals and a male couldn’t.
I think an anonymous person would probably be assumed to be male. Fair? Maybe not, but the set of circumstances that resulted in that situation weren’t really fair either.
One would think a feminist community would strive to avoid such assumptions, though. So I’m left wondering.
Hold off on proposing solutions.
In subjects like this, a lot of the discussion seems to be about:
Hey, I have this problem ….
Oh, me too! Nice to meet you.
A lot of us seem to have this problem, or something like it.
It reminds me of this other problem _____.
Hold on, it’s not like _____ for me because _____.
Is it like _____ for you? Yes, and _____ too.
Oh wow, it’s good to hear this isn’t just me being weird!
Is it similar to _____? Maybe, in these ways, but not in those ways.
What kinds of things have people done about it? Did that help?
If we _____, we’d best be sure not to _____ by mistake ….
In other words, a lot of it is about confirming that a problem exists, that people are dealing with a shared reality and not just having unrelated personal difficulties, establishing that they can trust one another to discuss what might be difficult things to talk about, and establishing a vocabulary for talking about the problem — so that individuals have a better understanding of their situation and are able to choose what to do individually on the basis of others’ situations too.
Insisting that the problem be talked about in one particular vocabulary — that your language is “accurate” and the other person’s language “sacrifices accuracy” — doesn’t sound like the sort of thing that would help solve problems of this sort.
I’m not sure where you got the idea I was proposing a solution. I’m just pointing out that I think the current terminology is not accurate in terms of mechanism, and suggesting that we use terminology that better reflects the underlying mechanism (if I’m correct that it does not). Admittedly, that is a question in itself—and in that sense I suppose I am proposing a solution to that particular subproblem—but I make no claim that better terminology will somehow solve the ultimate problems feminism fights. Rather I’m suggesting we be clear on what’s going on first (and use terminology that reflects that); that suggests far away from proposing solutions.
I’m not really sure what to make of this statement. Some terminology is better than other terminology. Either what I’m suggesting more accurately reflects the situation, or it doesn’t. Maybe I’m right or maybe I’m wrong, but that the question of which terminology is better is a question that can be discussed is something that should be uncontroversial.