In order to flourish, humans need to be both subjectified and objectified—that is, they they need to feel like they are in control of their life and that their wellbeing is taken as an end in itself by others (subjectified) but they also need to feel useful and wanted by others (objectified).
Of course they ideal balance between these two paradigms probably varies greatly between individuals and between groups. But I think it is plausible that our culture, in general, over-objectifies women and under-objectifies men. I don’t think this is actually that controversial, most narrative protagonists are men, most people who make money from their physical attractiveness are women. Bosses tend to be men, secretaries tend to be women. Traditionally men headed families, went to work and made the important decisions. Traditionally a woman’s role was to support her husband, cook for him, raise his children and look nice.
Now, if we assume that, whatever the ideal ratio of objectification to subjectification is for women, our culture over objectifies it becomes clear why feminists would oppose female objectification (one would also suspect that outspoken feminists would be among the most over-objectified relative to their ideal). The person doing the objectifying is contributing to patterns and trends that, on balance, make life worse for women. Conversely, men might be under-objectified and that is why they don’t understand why women object to certain instances of objectification. For example, most men probably want to be stared and desired just for their bodies more often than they are right now.
I don’t mean to suggest that the situation is symmetrical for men and women, exactly. It seems likely being over objectified is worse than being under objectified (a free person who isn’t needed or wanted by anyone is probably still better off than most slaves). Men and women may also, on average, prefer different levels of objectification.
In general, if we want a culture that provides something close to the ideal amount of objectification and subjectification for everyone we probably want a system that doesn’t objectify whole groups—better for people to get the objectification they need on an individual basis which should be better calibrated.
I think that this is a very interesting and useful way of looking at it. I do think that it’s better modeled as a 2d space than as a bell curve, though—I can imagine people needing very little of either kind of interaction (and probably being introverts in general) or needing unusual amounts of both (and probably being extroverts) as well as needing mostly one or mostly the other or near-equal amounts of both.
Agreed. It’s probably more multi-dimensional than that actually- people’s preferences regarding objecthood and subjecthood vary over different domains as well. There are people who want to be totally independent financially but dominated in bed and there are people happy to be dependent on another for income so long as they get to be on top. Further, people’s preferences change over time.
As usual, treating people as generalizations of their subgroup is dangerous.
There’s an associated Catch-22 actually. Finding out the degree of objectification someone desires is really difficult unless you ask them (and give them the freedom to learn and explore the relevant options). But of course, this subjectifies them (to a rather extreme level relative to the tremendous restrictions on autonomy our ancestors faced). This paradox plays out constantly as far as I can tell. For example, some people are turned off when others are overly concerned with getting prior permission to engage in romantic and sexual behavior. Person A may want person B to “just grab me and lay one on”. Person B may want to do the kissing but doesn’t know if A wants to be objectified in this way. B can ask A, but that would subjectify A ruining the moment if, in fact A did want to be objectified. The way out is for B to find out A wants to be kissed like that in a way that either doesn’t subjectify A (reading body language) or in a way where A doesn’t realize (s)he’s been subjectified (secretly finding out from person C who heard from person A).
Thats a pretty mundane example but I think this paradox often arises when modernity has given us choices we didn’t culturally or biologically evolve to have. For example, some have suggested that a variety of purposeless is the result of most people being free to choose their profession and role in society. The freedom to live almost wherever we like perhaps damages our desire to have a place we call home. These are the kind of things the much disparaged post-modernists and adjacent thinkers talk about—modernity undermining traditional folkways and whatnot.
Of course, for most people at most time there has been too much objectification. Such paradoxes aren’t good arguments for returning to a patriarchy that tolerated rape in certain circumstances or a caste system or peonage system. And I’m not actually sure how to measure the anxieties these paradoxes create.
Tentatively—I don’t think being a subject always means being able to explain what one wants. I’m pretty sure that words are as much an alien (at worst) or learnable with difficulty (at best) mode for some people as feeling and body language are for many of the people here.
(a free person who isn’t needed or wanted by anyone is probably still better off than most slaves)
I could dispute that. If nobody needs or wants them, how will they produce surpluses from comparative advantage which can then be exchanged for resources necessary to survival? A slave has food and shelter taken care of.
This comment is good, but it could be improved by using symmetric terms to describe the two conditions.
Objectified: Others will.. 1) give you few freedoms or choices, 2) dominate you, make decisions for you, control you, 3) have uses for you, 4) initiate romance with little confirmation of your participatory consent 5) want/expect you to care about their well being 6) not care about your well being 7) support you with resources / financially 8) value you for your attractiveness, help, concern, (and child raising and housekeeping) a) rather than for your financial support or decision making / control 9) want you to value them for their financial support and decision making / control a) rather than for their attractiveness, help, concern
Subjectified: Others will… 1) give you many freedoms and choices, 2) submit to you, rely on you to make decisions for them, want you to control them 3) want you to use them for things, 4) want you to initiate romance with little confirmation of their participatory consent 5) care about your well being 6) want/expect you to not care abut their well being 7) depend on you for resources / financially 8) value you for your financial support and decision making / control a) rather than for your attractiveness, help, concern 9) want you to value them for their attractivenss, help, concern, (and child raising and housekeeping) a) rather than for their financial support or decision making / control
Is that a fair, symmetric restatement of your points?
In order to flourish, humans need to be both subjectified and objectified—that is, they they need to feel like they are in control of their life and that their wellbeing is taken as an end in itself by others (subjectified) but they also need to feel useful and wanted by others (objectified).
Of course they ideal balance between these two paradigms probably varies greatly between individuals and between groups. But I think it is plausible that our culture, in general, over-objectifies women and under-objectifies men. I don’t think this is actually that controversial, most narrative protagonists are men, most people who make money from their physical attractiveness are women. Bosses tend to be men, secretaries tend to be women. Traditionally men headed families, went to work and made the important decisions. Traditionally a woman’s role was to support her husband, cook for him, raise his children and look nice.
Now, if we assume that, whatever the ideal ratio of objectification to subjectification is for women, our culture over objectifies it becomes clear why feminists would oppose female objectification (one would also suspect that outspoken feminists would be among the most over-objectified relative to their ideal). The person doing the objectifying is contributing to patterns and trends that, on balance, make life worse for women. Conversely, men might be under-objectified and that is why they don’t understand why women object to certain instances of objectification. For example, most men probably want to be stared and desired just for their bodies more often than they are right now.
I don’t mean to suggest that the situation is symmetrical for men and women, exactly. It seems likely being over objectified is worse than being under objectified (a free person who isn’t needed or wanted by anyone is probably still better off than most slaves). Men and women may also, on average, prefer different levels of objectification.
In general, if we want a culture that provides something close to the ideal amount of objectification and subjectification for everyone we probably want a system that doesn’t objectify whole groups—better for people to get the objectification they need on an individual basis which should be better calibrated.
I think that this is a very interesting and useful way of looking at it. I do think that it’s better modeled as a 2d space than as a bell curve, though—I can imagine people needing very little of either kind of interaction (and probably being introverts in general) or needing unusual amounts of both (and probably being extroverts) as well as needing mostly one or mostly the other or near-equal amounts of both.
Agreed. It’s probably more multi-dimensional than that actually- people’s preferences regarding objecthood and subjecthood vary over different domains as well. There are people who want to be totally independent financially but dominated in bed and there are people happy to be dependent on another for income so long as they get to be on top. Further, people’s preferences change over time.
As usual, treating people as generalizations of their subgroup is dangerous.
There’s an associated Catch-22 actually. Finding out the degree of objectification someone desires is really difficult unless you ask them (and give them the freedom to learn and explore the relevant options). But of course, this subjectifies them (to a rather extreme level relative to the tremendous restrictions on autonomy our ancestors faced). This paradox plays out constantly as far as I can tell. For example, some people are turned off when others are overly concerned with getting prior permission to engage in romantic and sexual behavior. Person A may want person B to “just grab me and lay one on”. Person B may want to do the kissing but doesn’t know if A wants to be objectified in this way. B can ask A, but that would subjectify A ruining the moment if, in fact A did want to be objectified. The way out is for B to find out A wants to be kissed like that in a way that either doesn’t subjectify A (reading body language) or in a way where A doesn’t realize (s)he’s been subjectified (secretly finding out from person C who heard from person A).
Thats a pretty mundane example but I think this paradox often arises when modernity has given us choices we didn’t culturally or biologically evolve to have. For example, some have suggested that a variety of purposeless is the result of most people being free to choose their profession and role in society. The freedom to live almost wherever we like perhaps damages our desire to have a place we call home. These are the kind of things the much disparaged post-modernists and adjacent thinkers talk about—modernity undermining traditional folkways and whatnot.
Of course, for most people at most time there has been too much objectification. Such paradoxes aren’t good arguments for returning to a patriarchy that tolerated rape in certain circumstances or a caste system or peonage system. And I’m not actually sure how to measure the anxieties these paradoxes create.
Tentatively—I don’t think being a subject always means being able to explain what one wants. I’m pretty sure that words are as much an alien (at worst) or learnable with difficulty (at best) mode for some people as feeling and body language are for many of the people here.
I could dispute that. If nobody needs or wants them, how will they produce surpluses from comparative advantage which can then be exchanged for resources necessary to survival? A slave has food and shelter taken care of.
That’s a very fascinating and insightful way to think about this issue.
This comment is good, but it could be improved by using symmetric terms to describe the two conditions.
Objectified: Others will..
1) give you few freedoms or choices,
2) dominate you, make decisions for you, control you,
3) have uses for you,
4) initiate romance with little confirmation of your participatory consent
5) want/expect you to care about their well being
6) not care about your well being
7) support you with resources / financially
8) value you for your attractiveness, help, concern, (and child raising and housekeeping)
a) rather than for your financial support or decision making / control
9) want you to value them for their financial support and decision making / control
a) rather than for their attractiveness, help, concern
Subjectified: Others will…
1) give you many freedoms and choices,
2) submit to you, rely on you to make decisions for them, want you to control them
3) want you to use them for things,
4) want you to initiate romance with little confirmation of their participatory consent
5) care about your well being
6) want/expect you to not care abut their well being
7) depend on you for resources / financially
8) value you for your financial support and decision making / control
a) rather than for your attractiveness, help, concern
9) want you to value them for their attractivenss, help, concern, (and child raising and housekeeping)
a) rather than for their financial support or decision making / control
Is that a fair, symmetric restatement of your points?