I’m a tall white American male, so sometimes it takes a bit of work for me to understand what it’s like to be a member of a suppressed group.
It’s a high-status truism in polite, liberal middle-class society that white males are not oppressed (except perhaps on the dimensions of class and sexual orientation). That’s exactly the sort of belief that should be interrogated on LW.
I propose that you have more insight into the oppression of other groups than you think, because you actually are a member of an oppressed group (males). You just haven’t been trained to conceptualize your experiences as oppression, like women have been trained by feminism.
For many readers, the notion that men are “oppressed” may be controversial. This view of oppression is denied by mainstream academic feminists. Nevertheless, some feminists do believe that men are oppressed (though not “as much” as women).
I shall argue that both women and men are oppressed, but not symmetrically. While men are positioned to act as systematic agents of the oppression of women, women are not in such a relation to men. Yet unsurprisingly, given the inescapably relational character of gender, the two oppressions are complementary in their functioning—the practices of each contribute to the reproduction of the other. In particular, the very practices which construct men’s capacity to oppress women and interest in doing so, work by systematically harming men.
Why do you think you aren’t a member of a suppressed/oppressed group? What thought process led you to accept that premise?
I don’t know about you, but I accepted that view in the past because I was encultured with it. Since you are someone who was socialized with another set of beliefs that you now question (religion), are alarm bells going off in your head yet? Even if it’s most reasonable to conclude that white males are not oppressed, I hypothesize that most people who hold that belief do so for the wrong reasons, and can’t actually show why it’s true.
“Objectification” is another such concept. We know that it’s yet another piece of jargon for a bad thing that men do to women. But we don’t really know what it and why it’s wrong, nor it is demarcated from ethical forms of imagery.
Back to you:
Of course, some activists (the word has positive connotations to me, BTW) pushed too far, as is the case in all large movements. At some times and places (1980s academia, I think), it was common to assert that there are almost no (average) significant differences between men and women that aren’t caused by enculturation, except for genitalia. That is of course false. Hormones matter, especially during development.
Social constructionism is alive and well in Women’s Studies programs today. For instance, I encountered claims that both sexual orientation and sex (i.e. male/female) are socially constructed.
Of course, social constructionism isn’t the only objection to feminism. See this post for some other books that critique feminism. Keep in mind that not all feminists make these sorts of errors, but particular groups of feminists do, and don’t get sufficiently called on it.
Could you please taboo “oppression” and its synonyms? You seem to be using it as a sort of discrimination/cognitive bias affair which doesn’t seem to fit colloquial use of oppression.
Oppression in common usage appears to signify systematic stereotyping with a net negative effect for the population group in question, or specific behaviors associated with oppression of a group, in which case neither males nor white males are oppressed, even though there are indubitably cases where discrimination and cognitive biases turn out negatively for specific subgroups (such as male nurses, cuckolds, divorcees, etc.)
“Objectification” is another such concept. We know that it’s yet another piece of jargon for a bad thing that men do to women. But we don’t really know what it and why it’s wrong, nor it is demarcated from ethical forms of imagery.
Objectification is a well-defined and experimentally verified to exist phenomenon by which women in western society at least judge themselves by the impression others have of their physical bodies, which correlates, amongst other things, to eating disorders.
While the connection between sexual imagery and objectification is less easily findable with google scholar, here is a study which correlates violence in watched pornography with short-term aggressive behavior.
With this definition of objectification—the identification of women and their physical appearance (9 on the list) - it is obvious that the Playboy magazine is an example of an act of objectification, while people playing in mud is not: the playboy magazine serves to display a prime specimen of the female body, while the other image serves to display a prime specimen of people playing in mud.
Hence, the only assumption we need to make is that playboy magazines cause the same objectification which causes psychological damage to women is that objectifying specific women or seeing women being objectified causes the objectification of other women, which frankly does not seem unbelievable because it’s basic “monkey see, monkey do”.
It should also be noted that every last posited “defining characteristic” is directly implied by characteristic #9. #8 through specification and the others by negative phrasing, and that #9 is in fact the apparent scientific definition of the concept. So while the other characteristics increase the probability of objectification, they don’t guarantee it.
Of course, social constructionism isn’t the only objection to feminism. See this post for some other books that critique feminism. Keep in mind that not all feminists make these sorts of errors, but particular groups of feminists do, and don’t get sufficiently called on it.
One last thing: Your statement that not all feminists are social constructivists implies that the truth value of social constructivism doesn’t affect the truth value of feminism, but rather the truth value of whatever those feminists do believe that makes them social constructivists, assuming there are rational feminists who are not social constructivists.
PS: Hi, I’m new here. Please be patient with me if I’m in error.
Objectification is a well-defined and experimentally verified to exist phenomenon by which women in western society at least judge themselves by the impression others have of their physical bodies...
You seem to be saying that objectification is something women do to themselves. Is this your intention?
People don’t have that amount of fine control over their own psychology. Depression isn’t something people ‘do to themselves’ either, at least not with the common implications of that phrase.
Also, this was a minimal definition based on a quick search of relevant literature for demonstrated effects, as I intended to indicate with “at least”. Effects of objectification in the perpetrator are harder to disentangle.
Oppression in common usage appears to signify systematic stereotyping with a net negative effect for the population group in question, or specific behaviors associated with oppression of a group, in which case neither males nor white males are oppressed, even though there are indubitably cases where discrimination and cognitive biases turn out negatively for specific subgroups (such as male nurses, cuckolds, divorcees, etc.)
A specific factor having a net negative effect does not preclude other factors resulting in a net positive relative to other groups, unless I parsed that wrong.
“Objectification” is another such concept. We know that it’s yet another piece of jargon for a bad thing that men do to women. But we don’t really know what it and why it’s wrong, nor it is demarcated from ethical forms of imagery.
Objectification is a well-defined and experimentally verified to exist phenomenon by which women in western society at least judge themselves by the impression others have of their physical bodies, which correlates, amongst other things, to eating disorders
That is an excellent definition and we should probably adopt it here, but it doesn’t quite match up with common usage in most situations.
Also, a belated hi. Sure hope you decided to stick around.
Upvoted because it’s a well-sourced and coherent argument.
Which is not to say that I agree with the conclusion. Okay, so there may be this effect of women being identified with their bodies.
But here’s the thing: WE ARE OUR BODIES. We should be identifying with them, and if we’re not, that’s actually a very serious defect in our thinking (probably the defect that leads to such nonsense as dualism and religion).
Now, I guess you could say that maybe women are taught to care too much about physical appearance or something like that (they should care about other things as well, like intelligence, kindness, etc.). But a lot of feminists seem to be arguing that we should not care about how our bodies look at all, which is blatantly absurd.
Indeed, one thing that I know I have done wrong in my life and that other people have done to me to hurt me is to ignore my body. I have a tendency to think in terms of my mind and body being separate things, like my body is just a house my mind lives in. And then other people tend to treat me as some kind of asexual being that has transcended bodily form. The result is a very screwed-up body image and a lot of sexual frustration. On the definition you just gave, I am apparently under-objectified.
I’m not sure I would call it “oppression”, but it’s clearly true that heterosexual men are by far the MOST controlled by restrictive gender norms. It is straight men who are most intensely shoehorned into this concept of “masculinity” that may or may not suit them, and their status is severely downgraded if they deviate in any way.
If you doubt this, imagine a straight man wearing eye shadow and a mini-skirt.
Compare to a straight woman wearing a tuxedo.
Social constructionism is alive and well in Women’s Studies programs today. For instance, I encountered claims that both sexual orientation and sex (i.e. male/female) are socially constructed.
Since “sex” is usually defined as biological, and thus by definition not cultural (“gender”), then this statement seems nonsensical or underspecified. Could you clarify it with “sex” tabooed?
(Incidentally, it amuses me that “sexual orientation is a social construct” parses as liberal, while “homosexuality is a choice/lifestyle” parses as conservative. Despite being nearly identical in meaning and implications.)
Incidentally, it amuses me that “sexual orientation is a social construct” parses as liberal, while “homosexuality is a choice/lifestyle” parses as conservative. Despite being nearly identical in meaning and implications.
Not alike in implications at all. Whether something is a choice is different from whether something feels like a choice.
Also, as wedrifid said, some people are born with their sex unclear. Often, surgery is performed to “correct” the baby to a particular sex.
I think that less constrictive gender roles would solve most of the social pressure in those circumstances. To the point that I think distinctions between sex and gender are analytically worthwhile. But not everyone who dislikes the current gender roles agrees with my assessment.
Also, as wedrifid said, some people are born with their sex unclear. Often, surgery is performed to “correct” the baby to a particular sex.
I think that less constrictive gender roles would solve most of the social pressure in those circumstances.
How so? I don’t think a weakening of gender roles will help to change the fact that most people aren’t going to be sexually attracted to someone who’s biologically sort of in between the sexes. Or are you referring to a different social pressure than the one towards surgery?
I suppose it depends on how hard you think rejecting social constructs is, at that. Still, the mere existence of a “cure for gay” would massively reshape the debate, let alone one as easy as, well, willpower and objectivity.
Since “sex” is usually defined as biological, and thus by definition not cultural (“gender”), then this statement seems nonsensical or underspecified. Could you clarify it with “sex” tabooed?
Phenotype is physical and not (completely) determined by genetics. A physical form that is, for whatever reason, a certain shape may be defined by social construction to be “female” or male” depending on the details of the culture. Most obvious applications here would be whether a guy who has operations to get some pieces cut off and takes some hormones is called a “female”, whether people who place dress-ups but mean it are called their desired sex and whether someone born with testicles and no ovaries but looking like this is a female).
“Socially constructed” is usually a fancy way of saying “taught”.
Bodies are out there in the world, part of the territory. The idea that some of them are “male” bodies and some are “female” bodies is something that is taught to kids. That doesn’t mean it’s thereby right or wrong: the existence of God and of electrons are both things that are taught, too.
In the case of electrons, the things that are taught about them have been checked against the territory in a lot of ways, although not entirely. (For instance, a lot of people would tell you that nothing that runs on a couple of AA batteries can give you a deadly shock: batteries are safe; wall current is dangerous. This is wrong.) In the case of God, the things that are taught are not really checked against the territory so much. And in the case of maleness and femaleness, it’s kind of in between. There is a lot of fallacious thinking that gets passed off (mistaking of statistical generalizations for universal truths, for instance) and a lot of data that kind of get swept under the rug because they make someone uncomfortable — kind of in the same way that people who believe in a nice friendly God like to sweep uncomfortable data under the rug, too.
The quality of thinking about sex (i.e. male and female bodies) is not as rigorous as the thinking about electrons (and most people have a lot of wrong ideas about those!) but it’s not as fuzzy as the thinking about God. But one of the things people are taught about sex is that they’re supposed to be very sure of it. And that’s a recipe for bad rationality.
lukeprog said:
It’s a high-status truism in polite, liberal middle-class society that white males are not oppressed (except perhaps on the dimensions of class and sexual orientation). That’s exactly the sort of belief that should be interrogated on LW.
I propose that you have more insight into the oppression of other groups than you think, because you actually are a member of an oppressed group (males). You just haven’t been trained to conceptualize your experiences as oppression, like women have been trained by feminism.
For many readers, the notion that men are “oppressed” may be controversial. This view of oppression is denied by mainstream academic feminists. Nevertheless, some feminists do believe that men are oppressed (though not “as much” as women).
Rather than argue that men are oppressed myself, I will refer to feminist sociologist Caroline New’s amazing paper Oppressed and Oppressors? The Systematic Mistreatment of Men, which I discussed a while ago on my blog:
Why do you think you aren’t a member of a suppressed/oppressed group? What thought process led you to accept that premise?
I don’t know about you, but I accepted that view in the past because I was encultured with it. Since you are someone who was socialized with another set of beliefs that you now question (religion), are alarm bells going off in your head yet? Even if it’s most reasonable to conclude that white males are not oppressed, I hypothesize that most people who hold that belief do so for the wrong reasons, and can’t actually show why it’s true.
“Objectification” is another such concept. We know that it’s yet another piece of jargon for a bad thing that men do to women. But we don’t really know what it and why it’s wrong, nor it is demarcated from ethical forms of imagery.
Back to you:
Social constructionism is alive and well in Women’s Studies programs today. For instance, I encountered claims that both sexual orientation and sex (i.e. male/female) are socially constructed.
Of course, social constructionism isn’t the only objection to feminism. See this post for some other books that critique feminism. Keep in mind that not all feminists make these sorts of errors, but particular groups of feminists do, and don’t get sufficiently called on it.
Could you please taboo “oppression” and its synonyms? You seem to be using it as a sort of discrimination/cognitive bias affair which doesn’t seem to fit colloquial use of oppression.
Oppression in common usage appears to signify systematic stereotyping with a net negative effect for the population group in question, or specific behaviors associated with oppression of a group, in which case neither males nor white males are oppressed, even though there are indubitably cases where discrimination and cognitive biases turn out negatively for specific subgroups (such as male nurses, cuckolds, divorcees, etc.)
Objectification is a well-defined and experimentally verified to exist phenomenon by which women in western society at least judge themselves by the impression others have of their physical bodies, which correlates, amongst other things, to eating disorders.
While the connection between sexual imagery and objectification is less easily findable with google scholar, here is a study which correlates violence in watched pornography with short-term aggressive behavior.
With this definition of objectification—the identification of women and their physical appearance (9 on the list) - it is obvious that the Playboy magazine is an example of an act of objectification, while people playing in mud is not: the playboy magazine serves to display a prime specimen of the female body, while the other image serves to display a prime specimen of people playing in mud.
Hence, the only assumption we need to make is that playboy magazines cause the same objectification which causes psychological damage to women is that objectifying specific women or seeing women being objectified causes the objectification of other women, which frankly does not seem unbelievable because it’s basic “monkey see, monkey do”.
It should also be noted that every last posited “defining characteristic” is directly implied by characteristic #9. #8 through specification and the others by negative phrasing, and that #9 is in fact the apparent scientific definition of the concept. So while the other characteristics increase the probability of objectification, they don’t guarantee it.
One last thing: Your statement that not all feminists are social constructivists implies that the truth value of social constructivism doesn’t affect the truth value of feminism, but rather the truth value of whatever those feminists do believe that makes them social constructivists, assuming there are rational feminists who are not social constructivists.
PS: Hi, I’m new here. Please be patient with me if I’m in error.
You seem to be saying that objectification is something women do to themselves. Is this your intention?
People don’t have that amount of fine control over their own psychology. Depression isn’t something people ‘do to themselves’ either, at least not with the common implications of that phrase.
Also, this was a minimal definition based on a quick search of relevant literature for demonstrated effects, as I intended to indicate with “at least”. Effects of objectification in the perpetrator are harder to disentangle.
A specific factor having a net negative effect does not preclude other factors resulting in a net positive relative to other groups, unless I parsed that wrong.
That is an excellent definition and we should probably adopt it here, but it doesn’t quite match up with common usage in most situations.
Also, a belated hi. Sure hope you decided to stick around.
Upvoted because it’s a well-sourced and coherent argument.
Which is not to say that I agree with the conclusion. Okay, so there may be this effect of women being identified with their bodies.
But here’s the thing: WE ARE OUR BODIES. We should be identifying with them, and if we’re not, that’s actually a very serious defect in our thinking (probably the defect that leads to such nonsense as dualism and religion).
Now, I guess you could say that maybe women are taught to care too much about physical appearance or something like that (they should care about other things as well, like intelligence, kindness, etc.). But a lot of feminists seem to be arguing that we should not care about how our bodies look at all, which is blatantly absurd.
Indeed, one thing that I know I have done wrong in my life and that other people have done to me to hurt me is to ignore my body. I have a tendency to think in terms of my mind and body being separate things, like my body is just a house my mind lives in. And then other people tend to treat me as some kind of asexual being that has transcended bodily form. The result is a very screwed-up body image and a lot of sexual frustration. On the definition you just gave, I am apparently under-objectified.
I’m not sure I would call it “oppression”, but it’s clearly true that heterosexual men are by far the MOST controlled by restrictive gender norms. It is straight men who are most intensely shoehorned into this concept of “masculinity” that may or may not suit them, and their status is severely downgraded if they deviate in any way.
If you doubt this, imagine a straight man wearing eye shadow and a mini-skirt. Compare to a straight woman wearing a tuxedo.
See the difference?
Since “sex” is usually defined as biological, and thus by definition not cultural (“gender”), then this statement seems nonsensical or underspecified. Could you clarify it with “sex” tabooed?
(Incidentally, it amuses me that “sexual orientation is a social construct” parses as liberal, while “homosexuality is a choice/lifestyle” parses as conservative. Despite being nearly identical in meaning and implications.)
Not alike in implications at all. Whether something is a choice is different from whether something feels like a choice.
Also, as wedrifid said, some people are born with their sex unclear. Often, surgery is performed to “correct” the baby to a particular sex.
I think that less constrictive gender roles would solve most of the social pressure in those circumstances. To the point that I think distinctions between sex and gender are analytically worthwhile. But not everyone who dislikes the current gender roles agrees with my assessment.
How so? I don’t think a weakening of gender roles will help to change the fact that most people aren’t going to be sexually attracted to someone who’s biologically sort of in between the sexes. Or are you referring to a different social pressure than the one towards surgery?
I suppose it depends on how hard you think rejecting social constructs is, at that. Still, the mere existence of a “cure for gay” would massively reshape the debate, let alone one as easy as, well, willpower and objectivity.
Phenotype is physical and not (completely) determined by genetics. A physical form that is, for whatever reason, a certain shape may be defined by social construction to be “female” or male” depending on the details of the culture. Most obvious applications here would be whether a guy who has operations to get some pieces cut off and takes some hormones is called a “female”, whether people who place dress-ups but mean it are called their desired sex and whether someone born with testicles and no ovaries but looking like this is a female).
“Socially constructed” is usually a fancy way of saying “taught”.
Bodies are out there in the world, part of the territory. The idea that some of them are “male” bodies and some are “female” bodies is something that is taught to kids. That doesn’t mean it’s thereby right or wrong: the existence of God and of electrons are both things that are taught, too.
In the case of electrons, the things that are taught about them have been checked against the territory in a lot of ways, although not entirely. (For instance, a lot of people would tell you that nothing that runs on a couple of AA batteries can give you a deadly shock: batteries are safe; wall current is dangerous. This is wrong.) In the case of God, the things that are taught are not really checked against the territory so much. And in the case of maleness and femaleness, it’s kind of in between. There is a lot of fallacious thinking that gets passed off (mistaking of statistical generalizations for universal truths, for instance) and a lot of data that kind of get swept under the rug because they make someone uncomfortable — kind of in the same way that people who believe in a nice friendly God like to sweep uncomfortable data under the rug, too.
The quality of thinking about sex (i.e. male and female bodies) is not as rigorous as the thinking about electrons (and most people have a lot of wrong ideas about those!) but it’s not as fuzzy as the thinking about God. But one of the things people are taught about sex is that they’re supposed to be very sure of it. And that’s a recipe for bad rationality.
As a friendly addendum, I think your point that people are “supposed to be very sure of it” is an important part of the concept.
A more LW friendly version of this point is Paul Graham’s Keep Your Identity Small
Ah, I see. “Gender is not determined by sex.”