Eugine expressed that he found certain people MoreWrong.
And the proper way to expose the fallacies in someone’s opinions is downvoting all their comments, both those that contain the fallacies, and those that don’t? Even including, if I remember correctly, meetup announcements?
And if perchance I disagree with Eugine’s opinion about a user X, the proper way to express my disagreement would be to upvote all their comments, both those smart and those not smart; because otherwise my vote has smaller value than Eugine’s? And then if we all adopt this norm, we will keep upvoting and downvoting comments according to the users’ popularity, regardless of the merits of specific comments? Why not simplify the whole system and upvote and downvote users directly? -- Do you have the same political opinion as I do? Upvoted. The opposite opinion? Downvoted. Certainly there is a lesson somewhere about how this would lead to increased rationality.
You know, in the political debates I often had a similar position like Eugine. But I didn’t mass-downvote my opponents, and as far as I know, none of them mass-downvoted me. Something like implicit cooperation in a prisonners’ dilemma. Which allowed the debates to be much more civilized than most of the internet. Which I enjoyed. I partially blame Eugine for destroying this possibility of having civilized political debates on LW. It’s hard to have a respectful debate, when one of participants is systematically downvoted regardless of whether they made a smart or stupid comment, whether they made a fallacy or exposed their opponent’s fallacy. How are people supposed to learn and change their minds in such a debate? Isn’t that one of the purposes of Less Wrong?
In the past I have explicitly objected against trying to bring new members based on their political opinion, to create a “balance”. But removing new members based on their political opinion, that’s even worse. At least the former contributes to the growth of the community, and there is a chance that those people might changed their opinions when exposed to intelligent arguments against. The latter just promotes one view; and if someone would update in the wrong direction, well, they might suddenly find their karma disappearing miraculously.
But he hasn’t really been shunned in turn, because people don’t seem to have the stomach for it. He’s been banished through technical means, and had his “anonymous” karma votes similarly exposed through technical means. Instead of shunning, power was used against him because people said they felt bad from being downvoted.
Which I believe is a great thing! Eugine’s actions did not start an arms race of mutual mass-downvoting. Not even on a website where many people have the ability to write a script for doing it, so such warfare wouldn’t cost them too much energy. (For example, I probably would be able to writte one. I have previously used Perl scripts to scrape content from some websites; maybe it would be relatively easy to customize them for LW. I didn’t try.)
Is that the kind of list you’d like, people complain about their hurt feelings from someone else’s evaluation of them, and he’s banished? Think you never “make” people feel bad?
Here you use too general terms. There are many ways to make people “feel bad”; but we are talking specifically about mass-downvoting here. People were making each other feel bad by posting comments the other side didn’t agree with, politically, pretty often. No one was ever banned for that.
Call him out for being an ass, if you think he was one. Great.
We had a few threads complaining about the mass-downvoting (although the identity of the downvoter wasn’t confirmed then), so it kinda happened.
Seems to me that there are some very different cultures here on the list. We can cut each other some slack, or we can fight for control of that kill switch.
Just to be sure how deep is the cultural difference: does mass-downvoting of new users belong to the “cut each other some slack” category? Should we aim for a balance of “I will mass-downvote the new users who seem to be on your side, and in turn you can mass-downvote the new users who seem to be on my side, and perhaps we can try destroying each other by downvoting scripts, but no one will call the moderator to intervene”?
And the proper way to expose the fallacies in someone’s opinions is downvoting all their comments, both those that contain the fallacies, and those that don’t?
No, that would communicate a more general evaluation on a person’s body of work.
the proper way to express my disagreement would be to upvote all their comments
Perhaps not all their comments, but have you never sought to right some karma wrong with compensatory votes of your own to bring more balance to the Force? I occasionally do.
according to the users’ popularity, regardless of the merits of specific comments?
I’ve never said karma vote according to popularity, Eugine didn’t, and your scenario didn’t either.
MoreWrong +1.
Why not simplify the whole system and upvote and downvote users directly?
Karma votes can certainly be interpreted that way, or voted that way. That’s apparently how Eugine was voting.
People were making each other feel bad by posting comments the other side didn’t agree with, politically, pretty often. No one was ever banned for that.
Not yet that I am aware. But you (or I) would certainly be in the running to be the first. I think I’d be in the lead today, but I’m sure you’ll take the lead on other days.
I think Eugine is still on the list if his downvotes had been upvotes. The horrific consequence of his downvoting was “people felt bad and so stopped posting”. That can happen from any expressed opinion. Likely many of yours. And mine. And I believe some people had expressed that many opinions I believe you and I hold are simply beyond the pale and should not be “tolerated”.
“First they came for Eugine, and I thought he was a dick, so I did not speak out...”
Somebody I can’t recall ever having heard of thinks I “insulted” them—I’m guessing for my comment on dysfunction, though they weren’t specific. Let’s not talk about winning or losing anymore, what is functional and dysfunctional, because someone might feel insulted if the shoe fits.
It’s hard to have a respectful debate, when one of participants is systematically downvoted regardless of whether they made a smart or stupid comment, whether they made a fallacy or exposed their opponent’s fallacy.
No it’s not.
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness. If you saw that happening, you could have rectified the horror of Karma −1 with your own vote. We’re talking about a single karma point here, per post, which needn’t have put someone in a tizzy in the first place.
Life isn’t so difficult, even when people disagree with you.
I will mass-downvote the new users who seem to be on your side,
Mischaracteriztion. He is reported to have said:
users who he did not think displayed sufficient rationality.
No talk of “sides” here, just rationality.
MoreWrong +1
does mass-downvoting of new users belong to the “cut each other some slack” category?
MoreWrong +1. I’ve frequently said I’m opposed to mass downvoting.
Not yet that I am aware. But you (or I) would certainly be in the running to be the first.
I don’t care about the conditional probability P( me gets banned for my opinions | someone gets banned for their opinion ) if the probability P( someone gets banned for their opinion ) is extremely low, which I believe it is. Actually, I don’t even believe the conditional probability is so high for me; though it could be a bit higher for you, but anyway...
I believe the probability of either of us getting banned on LW during the next five years, assuming we continue writing our comments more or less the same way we do now (which I intend to) and don’t participate in any activity such as mass-downvoting; and assuming that MIRI and CFAR will continue to exist and be connected with LW… is less than 2%.
And I believe some people had expressed that many opinions I believe you and I hold are simply beyond the pale and should not be “tolerated”.
I agree with you in this. I just believe those people don’t have enough power to enforce their threats here, and they are more likely to leave this web disappointed than remain here long enough to gain that power. Also, contrarianism works against them.
He is reported to have said:
users who he did not think displayed sufficient rationality.
No talk of “sides” here, just rationality.
My model of him says that he detected “insufficient rationality” when people disagreed with him politically. What you quoted is how it felt to him from inside. (I admit I cannot prove this.)
I just believe those people don’t have enough power to enforce their threats here,
Today. But it’s rather telling that the threats were made and discussed seriously.
You’re not from the US, right?
Things have been pretty wacky here in the last year, with numerous high profile cases of people losing their jobs/status/property for Thoughtcrime. I would have considered these highly unlikely just a year ago.
My model of him …
My prior would put that as fairly likely. Without going through the posts of the people involved, and I won’t, it’s hard to know. I have a vague “reasonable guy” tag in my head for him. Could be for similar reasons.
No, I’m not from US. But I read internet, so I am probably aware of some things.
it’s rather telling that the threats were made and discussed seriously.
And they achieved zero success. Because this is Sparta… ahem, Less Wrong.
And if they tried the same thing next time, there even wouldn’t be so much drama again, because we are already inoculated. “There are more nerd boys than nerd girls, therefore nerds are sexists!” Yeah, already heard it, not impressed.
numerous high profile cases of people losing their jobs/status/property for Thoughtcrime
This deserves a longer debate (and LW is probably not the right place to have it) about specific details. I would guess that in most of these cases, those people were thrown overboard by their colleagues, in an effort to protect money from government or wide public. Less Wrong does not take government money, and our public supporters are mostly contrarians by nature. In other words, we are not a university, and we cannot be destroyed by a Twitter campaign.
Most importantly, I don’t believe Eliezer would jump on a political correctness bandwagon. Also, there are already many “shocking” news about LW (basilisk, polyamory, etc.); it would be too late to try a PR coverup.
I would guess that in most of these cases, those people were thrown overboard by their colleagues, in an effort to protect money from government or wide public.
Yes. People cave. Much easier for everyone to throw someone to the mob than to fight. That’s the magic of people who mean it. Small groups of motivated people who mean it can easily cow larger groups who don’t want a fight.
Most importantly, I don’t believe Eliezer would jump on a political correctness bandwagon.
If he has meant at all what he has said about UFAI, he’ll turn over the keys of LessWrong to the Thought Police in a second if it further the efforts for FAI, for much the same reasons that everyone else caves.
I began to weigh those who followed me, balancing
them one against another, asking who I would risk, and who I would
sacrifice, to what end. It was strange how many fewer pieces I lost, once
I knew what they were worth.
Even a small, motivated group can destroy value. Everyone caves, unless they’re equally looney.
And the proper way to expose the fallacies in someone’s opinions is downvoting all their comments, both those that contain the fallacies, and those that don’t? Even including, if I remember correctly, meetup announcements?
And if perchance I disagree with Eugine’s opinion about a user X, the proper way to express my disagreement would be to upvote all their comments, both those smart and those not smart; because otherwise my vote has smaller value than Eugine’s? And then if we all adopt this norm, we will keep upvoting and downvoting comments according to the users’ popularity, regardless of the merits of specific comments? Why not simplify the whole system and upvote and downvote users directly? -- Do you have the same political opinion as I do? Upvoted. The opposite opinion? Downvoted. Certainly there is a lesson somewhere about how this would lead to increased rationality.
You know, in the political debates I often had a similar position like Eugine. But I didn’t mass-downvote my opponents, and as far as I know, none of them mass-downvoted me. Something like implicit cooperation in a prisonners’ dilemma. Which allowed the debates to be much more civilized than most of the internet. Which I enjoyed. I partially blame Eugine for destroying this possibility of having civilized political debates on LW. It’s hard to have a respectful debate, when one of participants is systematically downvoted regardless of whether they made a smart or stupid comment, whether they made a fallacy or exposed their opponent’s fallacy. How are people supposed to learn and change their minds in such a debate? Isn’t that one of the purposes of Less Wrong?
In the past I have explicitly objected against trying to bring new members based on their political opinion, to create a “balance”. But removing new members based on their political opinion, that’s even worse. At least the former contributes to the growth of the community, and there is a chance that those people might changed their opinions when exposed to intelligent arguments against. The latter just promotes one view; and if someone would update in the wrong direction, well, they might suddenly find their karma disappearing miraculously.
Which I believe is a great thing! Eugine’s actions did not start an arms race of mutual mass-downvoting. Not even on a website where many people have the ability to write a script for doing it, so such warfare wouldn’t cost them too much energy. (For example, I probably would be able to writte one. I have previously used Perl scripts to scrape content from some websites; maybe it would be relatively easy to customize them for LW. I didn’t try.)
Here you use too general terms. There are many ways to make people “feel bad”; but we are talking specifically about mass-downvoting here. People were making each other feel bad by posting comments the other side didn’t agree with, politically, pretty often. No one was ever banned for that.
We had a few threads complaining about the mass-downvoting (although the identity of the downvoter wasn’t confirmed then), so it kinda happened.
Just to be sure how deep is the cultural difference: does mass-downvoting of new users belong to the “cut each other some slack” category? Should we aim for a balance of “I will mass-downvote the new users who seem to be on your side, and in turn you can mass-downvote the new users who seem to be on my side, and perhaps we can try destroying each other by downvoting scripts, but no one will call the moderator to intervene”?
No, that would communicate a more general evaluation on a person’s body of work.
Perhaps not all their comments, but have you never sought to right some karma wrong with compensatory votes of your own to bring more balance to the Force? I occasionally do.
I’ve never said karma vote according to popularity, Eugine didn’t, and your scenario didn’t either.
MoreWrong +1.
Karma votes can certainly be interpreted that way, or voted that way. That’s apparently how Eugine was voting.
Not yet that I am aware. But you (or I) would certainly be in the running to be the first. I think I’d be in the lead today, but I’m sure you’ll take the lead on other days.
I think Eugine is still on the list if his downvotes had been upvotes. The horrific consequence of his downvoting was “people felt bad and so stopped posting”. That can happen from any expressed opinion. Likely many of yours. And mine. And I believe some people had expressed that many opinions I believe you and I hold are simply beyond the pale and should not be “tolerated”.
“First they came for Eugine, and I thought he was a dick, so I did not speak out...”
Somebody I can’t recall ever having heard of thinks I “insulted” them—I’m guessing for my comment on dysfunction, though they weren’t specific. Let’s not talk about winning or losing anymore, what is functional and dysfunctional, because someone might feel insulted if the shoe fits.
No it’s not.
Better to light a candle than curse the darkness. If you saw that happening, you could have rectified the horror of Karma −1 with your own vote. We’re talking about a single karma point here, per post, which needn’t have put someone in a tizzy in the first place.
Life isn’t so difficult, even when people disagree with you.
Mischaracteriztion. He is reported to have said:
No talk of “sides” here, just rationality.
MoreWrong +1
MoreWrong +1. I’ve frequently said I’m opposed to mass downvoting.
I don’t care about the conditional probability P( me gets banned for my opinions | someone gets banned for their opinion ) if the probability P( someone gets banned for their opinion ) is extremely low, which I believe it is. Actually, I don’t even believe the conditional probability is so high for me; though it could be a bit higher for you, but anyway...
I believe the probability of either of us getting banned on LW during the next five years, assuming we continue writing our comments more or less the same way we do now (which I intend to) and don’t participate in any activity such as mass-downvoting; and assuming that MIRI and CFAR will continue to exist and be connected with LW… is less than 2%.
I agree with you in this. I just believe those people don’t have enough power to enforce their threats here, and they are more likely to leave this web disappointed than remain here long enough to gain that power. Also, contrarianism works against them.
My model of him says that he detected “insufficient rationality” when people disagreed with him politically. What you quoted is how it felt to him from inside. (I admit I cannot prove this.)
Today. But it’s rather telling that the threats were made and discussed seriously.
You’re not from the US, right?
Things have been pretty wacky here in the last year, with numerous high profile cases of people losing their jobs/status/property for Thoughtcrime. I would have considered these highly unlikely just a year ago.
My prior would put that as fairly likely. Without going through the posts of the people involved, and I won’t, it’s hard to know. I have a vague “reasonable guy” tag in my head for him. Could be for similar reasons.
No, I’m not from US. But I read internet, so I am probably aware of some things.
And they achieved zero success. Because this is Sparta… ahem, Less Wrong.
And if they tried the same thing next time, there even wouldn’t be so much drama again, because we are already inoculated. “There are more nerd boys than nerd girls, therefore nerds are sexists!” Yeah, already heard it, not impressed.
This deserves a longer debate (and LW is probably not the right place to have it) about specific details. I would guess that in most of these cases, those people were thrown overboard by their colleagues, in an effort to protect money from government or wide public. Less Wrong does not take government money, and our public supporters are mostly contrarians by nature. In other words, we are not a university, and we cannot be destroyed by a Twitter campaign.
Most importantly, I don’t believe Eliezer would jump on a political correctness bandwagon. Also, there are already many “shocking” news about LW (basilisk, polyamory, etc.); it would be too late to try a PR coverup.
Well...
(I agree with the rest of your comment.)
I think many would not characterize that action as jumping on the political correctness bandwagon.
Yes. People cave. Much easier for everyone to throw someone to the mob than to fight. That’s the magic of people who mean it. Small groups of motivated people who mean it can easily cow larger groups who don’t want a fight.
If he has meant at all what he has said about UFAI, he’ll turn over the keys of LessWrong to the Thought Police in a second if it further the efforts for FAI, for much the same reasons that everyone else caves.
Even a small, motivated group can destroy value. Everyone caves, unless they’re equally looney.