It is odd, though, that the effect of the banning is apparently to prevent him from doing anything on LW except the conduct for which he was banned. Everyone is a hero to himself, and there is no reason to expect him not to carry on this behaviour while he can. I hope to see a technical resolution of this in the near future. I am surprised that access to his account was not simply removed. That is what banning seems to have meant in the past.
As for his past votes, reverting every one of them would be the simplest action. The collateral damage of removing such legitimate signal as there was in his other votes is a small price to avoid exercising judgement over every individual case.
I am surprised that access to his account was not simply removed.
I checked my recent comments, because I was planning to say that so far he doesn’t seem to have offended after the banning, however I found no evidence of that. The two comments from the last 2 days, which I had noticed did’t get any downvotes initially, now had one (as do my other comments). This doesn’t prove much, so I checked all the other users who were getting mass downvoted for extended periods (the list in the post) and it seems like all their recent comments had at least 1 downvote as well.
The above is not definite proof, but what I suspect might be happening is that Eugine’s bot/script is still running, despite him leaving the site.
I can’t help but feel threatening Eugine with a ban might have been better than summarily blocking him for past offenses.
I mean, this is his first time breaking the rules, right? And he can’t have known this would be a banning offense before it was declared one. He might well be willing to obey the new edict if given a choice between that and punishment.
I am not party to the conversation that took place between Eugine and Kaj, but there was a conversation and I would be surprised if it was not clear to him that his membership of LessWrong was on the line.
“First time” is not a good description of a persistent pattern of behaviour over a substantial course of time.
He was publicly named some time ago but laid low: he knew that what he was doing was not going down well, and not just with those he was downvoting. No-one has spoken up in favour of his activity; the nearest thing to that is weak remarks about downvoting being about whatever the downvoter wants to see less of, which sounds more like obsessive adherence to an imaginary rule than any positive defence of the practice. I often see people publicly saying that this or that post is downvoteworthy, but I have never seen anyone say that this or that person is, not even the most egregious intruders that lasted no more than weeks or days before being thrown out.
It appears (but is so far unconfirmed) that he is not willing to cease the systematic downvoting of persons even after “banning”. If so, how would he have been willing to stop on threat of it?
So no, he had already burned all those bridges before the axe fell.
It appears (but is so far unconfirmed) that he is not willing to cease the systematic downvoting of persons even after “banning”. If so, how would he have been willing to stop on threat of it?
This is not a difficult question. If Eugine assigns value to not getting banned then the threat of banning represents a disincentive. If the banning has already occurred that disincentive does not exist and all spite related motivations are likely to increase and any respect for the moral authority of the powers that be obliterated. What remains is the trivial inconvenience of continuing to downvote via other mechanisms.
Not actually having the power to stop a threat is a reason to use the power that you do have wisely. Were this just about influencing Eugine’s voting patterns then it would be a poor decision. But such actions are made more to establish precedent and influence others.
Disclaimer: I was largely indifferent to Eugine being banned. He certainly would have been on my block list were this forum not crippled in that regard. But the parent ask a rhetorical question with a straightforward decision-theory related answer.
“First time” is not a good description of a persistent pattern of behaviour over a substantial course of time.
Sorry, I meant that this was the first rule he had broken. You’re right, he was not a “first offender” in the sense that leniency is often extended to first offenders.
He was publicly named some time ago but laid low: he knew that what he was doing was not going down well, and not just with those he was downvoting.
True, but there’s a significant difference between “this will make me unpopular” and “this will get me permabanned”.
It appears (but is so far unconfirmed) that he is not willing to cease the systematic downvoting of persons even after “banning”. If so, how would he have been willing to stop on threat of it?
What possible benefit could it do him, to stop after being banned for life?
ETA:
No-one has spoken up in favour of his activity
Are you serious, or is that some sort of hyperbole?
Are you serious, or is that some sort of hyperbole?
I am serious. By his activity, I mean specifically his mass downvoting activity. It is possible I have missed someone defending this action. Show me some examples, if there are any.
I have seen people opposing the ban. I have seen people querulously quibbling, “ah, but suppose I find everything a user posts bad and I downvote each of them, is that a bannable offense and if not how are you going to tell, eh?” But I have not yet see anyone saying, Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away.
Ah, I see. There’s defending it and then there’s defending it.
Some people think it’s a bad idea to mass-downvote, but not banworthy. Some people think it is/was sometimes a good idea to mass-downvote—that’s what I was thinking of.
But you meant more along the lines of “Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away”?
You’re right, I haven’t seen anyone who claimed that.
I have seen people querulously quibbling, “ah, but suppose I find everything a user posts bad and I downvote each of them, is that a bannable offense and if not how are you going to tell, eh?” But I have not yet see anyone saying, Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away.
Ah, but it’s not clear that those are different activities, or if they are, whether there’s any way in the database or logs to tell the difference. So, when people “quibble” about the first, they’re implying (I think) that they believe that in the future someone might be right to downvote everything someone posts, because that person always posts terrible posts.
Part of the reason this is coming up is a lack or perceived lack of transparency as to exactly what patterns “convicted” Eugine_Nier.
Ah, but it’s not clear that those are different activities, or if they are, whether there’s any way in the database or logs to tell the difference.
In the present case, there was enough evidence to raise a reasonable suspicion, whereupon Kaj approached Eugine, who confirmed that he “was engaged in a “weeding” of users” (quoted from original post).
Rules come from judgement, not judgement from rules.
So, when people “quibble” about the first, they’re implying (I think) that they believe that in the future someone might be right to downvote everything someone posts, because that person always posts terrible posts.
Any bad post is worth downvoting. If someone writes nothing but bad posts, and there have been a few examples, every one of their posts gets downvoted. Such people are rare and they never last long. When an obvious moron or crank pops up here, I have myself on occasion systematically read their entire comment history (it’s never very long) and judged every comment. But I am always voting on the individual comment, never the person. I am certainly not going to downvote a meetup announcement because the poster is a Bad Person who must be spat on wherever they show their face, let alone write a bot to do the spitting for me.
Part of the reason this is coming up is a lack or perceived lack of transparency as to exactly what patterns “convicted” Eugine_Nier.
The transparency of how this case has been handled seems sufficient to me.
But I have not yet see anyone saying, Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away.
I wouldn’t say that about all of Eugine’s targets. There are some other users (or accounts) for which it would have been entirely appropriate. Particularly given that there were no moderators preventing sockpuppet abuse by trolls.
I am glad to see this decision.
It is odd, though, that the effect of the banning is apparently to prevent him from doing anything on LW except the conduct for which he was banned. Everyone is a hero to himself, and there is no reason to expect him not to carry on this behaviour while he can. I hope to see a technical resolution of this in the near future. I am surprised that access to his account was not simply removed. That is what banning seems to have meant in the past.
As for his past votes, reverting every one of them would be the simplest action. The collateral damage of removing such legitimate signal as there was in his other votes is a small price to avoid exercising judgement over every individual case.
I checked my recent comments, because I was planning to say that so far he doesn’t seem to have offended after the banning, however I found no evidence of that. The two comments from the last 2 days, which I had noticed did’t get any downvotes initially, now had one (as do my other comments). This doesn’t prove much, so I checked all the other users who were getting mass downvoted for extended periods (the list in the post) and it seems like all their recent comments had at least 1 downvote as well.
The above is not definite proof, but what I suspect might be happening is that Eugine’s bot/script is still running, despite him leaving the site.
I can’t help but feel threatening Eugine with a ban might have been better than summarily blocking him for past offenses.
I mean, this is his first time breaking the rules, right? And he can’t have known this would be a banning offense before it was declared one. He might well be willing to obey the new edict if given a choice between that and punishment.
I am not party to the conversation that took place between Eugine and Kaj, but there was a conversation and I would be surprised if it was not clear to him that his membership of LessWrong was on the line.
“First time” is not a good description of a persistent pattern of behaviour over a substantial course of time.
He was publicly named some time ago but laid low: he knew that what he was doing was not going down well, and not just with those he was downvoting. No-one has spoken up in favour of his activity; the nearest thing to that is weak remarks about downvoting being about whatever the downvoter wants to see less of, which sounds more like obsessive adherence to an imaginary rule than any positive defence of the practice. I often see people publicly saying that this or that post is downvoteworthy, but I have never seen anyone say that this or that person is, not even the most egregious intruders that lasted no more than weeks or days before being thrown out.
It appears (but is so far unconfirmed) that he is not willing to cease the systematic downvoting of persons even after “banning”. If so, how would he have been willing to stop on threat of it?
So no, he had already burned all those bridges before the axe fell.
This is not a difficult question. If Eugine assigns value to not getting banned then the threat of banning represents a disincentive. If the banning has already occurred that disincentive does not exist and all spite related motivations are likely to increase and any respect for the moral authority of the powers that be obliterated. What remains is the trivial inconvenience of continuing to downvote via other mechanisms.
Not actually having the power to stop a threat is a reason to use the power that you do have wisely. Were this just about influencing Eugine’s voting patterns then it would be a poor decision. But such actions are made more to establish precedent and influence others.
Disclaimer: I was largely indifferent to Eugine being banned. He certainly would have been on my block list were this forum not crippled in that regard. But the parent ask a rhetorical question with a straightforward decision-theory related answer.
Sorry, I meant that this was the first rule he had broken. You’re right, he was not a “first offender” in the sense that leniency is often extended to first offenders.
True, but there’s a significant difference between “this will make me unpopular” and “this will get me permabanned”.
What possible benefit could it do him, to stop after being banned for life?
ETA:
Are you serious, or is that some sort of hyperbole?
I am serious. By his activity, I mean specifically his mass downvoting activity. It is possible I have missed someone defending this action. Show me some examples, if there are any.
I have seen people opposing the ban. I have seen people querulously quibbling, “ah, but suppose I find everything a user posts bad and I downvote each of them, is that a bannable offense and if not how are you going to tell, eh?” But I have not yet see anyone saying, Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away.
Ah, I see. There’s defending it and then there’s defending it.
Some people think it’s a bad idea to mass-downvote, but not banworthy. Some people think it is/was sometimes a good idea to mass-downvote—that’s what I was thinking of.
But you meant more along the lines of “Eugine was right to downvote everything that these people posted, regardless of what it was, and everyone else should do the same until they are driven away”?
You’re right, I haven’t seen anyone who claimed that.
Ah, but it’s not clear that those are different activities, or if they are, whether there’s any way in the database or logs to tell the difference. So, when people “quibble” about the first, they’re implying (I think) that they believe that in the future someone might be right to downvote everything someone posts, because that person always posts terrible posts.
Part of the reason this is coming up is a lack or perceived lack of transparency as to exactly what patterns “convicted” Eugine_Nier.
In the present case, there was enough evidence to raise a reasonable suspicion, whereupon Kaj approached Eugine, who confirmed that he “was engaged in a “weeding” of users” (quoted from original post).
Rules come from judgement, not judgement from rules.
Any bad post is worth downvoting. If someone writes nothing but bad posts, and there have been a few examples, every one of their posts gets downvoted. Such people are rare and they never last long. When an obvious moron or crank pops up here, I have myself on occasion systematically read their entire comment history (it’s never very long) and judged every comment. But I am always voting on the individual comment, never the person. I am certainly not going to downvote a meetup announcement because the poster is a Bad Person who must be spat on wherever they show their face, let alone write a bot to do the spitting for me.
The transparency of how this case has been handled seems sufficient to me.
I wouldn’t say that about all of Eugine’s targets. There are some other users (or accounts) for which it would have been entirely appropriate. Particularly given that there were no moderators preventing sockpuppet abuse by trolls.
The no longer mysterious downvoter strikes again. An immediate downvote on this is just bizarre. We have scotch’d the snake, not killed it.
ETA: And a downvote here too! Well, what a surprise!